In the grand finale of The Deepest Dive on God of War Ragnarok from Sony’s Santa Monica Studio, we have an in-depth discussion on the game’s ending and what it means for the future of the series. MinnMax’s Ben Hanson (whose code was provided by PlayStation) is joined by Suriel Vazquez (@surielvazquez), Jill Grodt from The Indie Informer (@finruin), and Delayed Input’s Kyle Bosman (@kylebosman). We talk about Kratos, Odin’s finale, the hardest bosses, and a whole lot more. This discussion goes way beyond your average God of War Ragnarok spoilercast. Our deepest thanks to everybody who played along with us for the three-part game club discussion and submitted comments over on Patreon. Thanks for supporting The Deepest Dive format and spreading the word!
Unlock the podcast version of The Deepest Dive on Patreon – https://www.patreon.com/minnmax
You can check out Kyle Bosman’s videos here – https://www.youtube.com/c/KyleBosman
Watch Suriel Vazquez’s videos here – bit.ly/3VeyQWN
Follow The Indie Informer from Jill Grodt here – https://the-indie-in-former.com/
Follow us on Twitch – https://www.twitch.tv/minnmaxshow
Please support us on Patreon – https://www.patreon.com/minnmax
Watch our solo stream archives – https://bit.ly/3vRAQb
Buy MinnMax merch here – https://minnmax.com/merch
Follow us on Twitter – https://twitter.com/minnmaxshow
Go behind the scenes on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/minnmaxshow
Become a Game Champion by supporting MinnMax at the $50 tier on Patreon and lock in the game of your choice! https://www.patreon.com/minnmax
Age of Mythology – Jesse Joxstrap Brown-Baldock
Duck Game – RabidLime
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords – Logan Krause
Ghost of Tsushima – ProcyonNumber6
Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective – Christopher Walton
Kitbashers United – Games.archor.com
Electroplankton – Divorced Cougar
Marvel Vs Capcom 2 – Jawarhello
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast – Starkiller
Hotel Dusk: Room 215 – Joe Dean
Marvel Snap – PrettyGoodPrinting.com
Illusion of Gaia – Spider_Dan
Diablo II – Otsego12
Burnout 2: Point of Impact – Clayton Myers
Bayonetta 3 – Patrick Polk
Eternal Sonata – Clemens Zobel
Disaster: Day of Crisis – DominicCichocki
source
Was this series worth $2? Then help support MinnMax on Patreon and unlock the podcast version of The Deepest Dive! https://www.patreon.com/minnmax
What if near the end Kratos and Atreus plan was something totally original on how to kill Odin. (Maybe using new Fenrir) THEN the Tyr twist happens, forcing the group to resort to blowing Ghallahorn to resort to… idk just an idea because the consequences in the last chapter felt flat
This was easily my game of the year, and one of my favorite stories I’d ever played through. Yes, there are holes you can poke at, but I’m surprised at how much time was spent focusing on the negatives. Not just from the gang here, but people who wrote in, too. I know it doesn’t resonate the same way for everyone, it just kinda sapped my mood about it after the high of finishing the story myself.
So it's pretty clear that even the Giants' prophecies aren't infallible. The gang talks about how the Norns just predict off of people's nature but there are multiple Giants' prophecies that cannot be taken literally either. One being Kratos's "death" and one being that Tyr has to lead an opposing force at Ragnarok. The latter clearly didn't happen in pretty much any interpretation unless we think that was actually Kratos.
There are major themes of fate vs. free will here that the game goes out of its way to address. Kratos's changes his fate by changing how he thinks about things in the middle of Ragnarok. He tells his son to embrace empathy and compassion. It's clear that the prophecies of the Giants are not infallible as pretty much Angrboda's entire character arc revolves around thinking they are until the end.
While I do think there was some clunky stuff with Freyr and Surtr at the end for sure, this nitpicky concentration on the minute details of the prophecies kinda ignores the themes the game is trying to impart.
Athena tells Kratos he cannot change in the last game. Kratos changes. And because of that, and Atreus's choices, mentioned by Kratos in their last conversation, they both survive.
I dunno most of this video really surprised me. Opinions and all that but multiple times, the Tyr twist with Odin being one, I was kinda shocked not by the opinions, but by the gang just missing more context. Freya has an extremely strong reaction to "Tyr" calling her Frigg when they "reunite". The other major one is that every single time Odin is pretending to be Tyr, it's spelled Tyr in the subtitles (it looks like Ben didn't play with them which is crazy!) and when Atreus talks about Tyr, it's spelled with the symbol over it. Regardless Tyr acts extremely suspicious throughout the game.
Things aren't going to work for everyone but yeah I just feel most of this video is nitpicking stuff that's really quite irrelevant. One's headcanon can be a powerful thing.
You guys are the best, keep up the conversations. I wish i couldve seen the blade of olympus again, but the spear itself is epic.
There is so much GOW Ragnarok content out right now but nobody is taking the time to delve into the game as thoroughly as you all are and I can't thank you enough for sharing it with us. It's like sitting down with a friend! Thank you. Sad it's over, for this game at least.
24:21 Also I've got to admit that as a person of color I'm wary of the direction the developers could take with exploring Egypt, Japan, Mesoamerica, etc. My biggest concern is that they paint the gods of these new areas in a bad light (portraying them as ruthless dumbified enemies) and then have Atreus or Kratos go save the day or just kill without justification. I hope that if they do include new pantheons it's handled with respect.
I don’t need every damn game to be open world. I love single player story driven experiences. It’s like playing in a good movie.
Just going to correct Jill here: 2:08:00 ish, In the mythology Thor and Loki are not brothers, thats a Marvel thing, they are more like uncle and cousin, with Loki being the uncle because he and Odin have a blood pact that makes them blood brothers.
Loki will get into trouble and Kratos will need to help him
That’s my opinion on how they make another God Of War
Kratos was technically killed by Thor.
In the first fight, the moment that Thor breaks the 4th wall and brings up the restart screen- this is the only time the game does this.
I understand the theme and how Kratos living on ties in, but someone brought this up to me and I can't shake the thought that it's intentional.
If you follow the theme of generally defying fate but parallelling the predictions/prophecies of others, then it makes sense that Kratos' death would also subvert even the character's expectations.
Atreus wasn't there. There was no soul. Etc. So yes there are problems with the idea, but as the game already established throughout – things happen in their own way.
Great discussion as usual, my GOTY but 2018 is better. Those spoilercast with the director are super interesting, wish MinnMax could get one in the future.
At 12+ hours I think it's safe to say this indeed is the best, most thorough God of War Ragnarok discussion on the internet.
Don't get why so many people love Sindri's reaction to Brocks death. I think it's a bit too dramatic. Not only have they done the same thing already with Freya, when Baldur died – she was crying and holding a grudge for years, and she blamed someone who isn't really at fault – although at least it makes some sense since Kratos actually did kill him, but for Sindri to be this pissed at Atreius and Kratos. They really have nothing to do with Brock dying. And it kinda clashes with Sindris character. Yes, he obviously cares a lot about Brock, so much so, that he brought him back from the dead once, but he doesn't seem the type of character to blame his friends for something they had no way of knowing would happen.
The "Loki will go, Atreus remains" sounded kinda silly to me. The way Kratos said it reminded me so much of "Apes together, strong." It sounded really funny to me. XD
About the prophecies:
I think it's actually really clear. The murals are mostly from Faye or other Giants. The final mural is the possible future she saw when she mentions her death being an important part of changing fate. But probably redrawn by Angrboda. The other mural (that we see at the end of 2018) is not just a mural by Faye, but the prophecy seen by Giants.
That's why Angrboda drew the same mural by her own. It's basically the original prophecy.
Faye dying and Kratos changing his nature basically leads to the best possible alternative. At least for Kratos. But that alternative "fate" was only seen by Faye and no other Giant.
She is the only one that believed in a different outcome, while Angrboda explains that all the other Giants consider fate an unavoidable thing. No matter what you do, the result is always the same.
Probably one of the main reasons why she left Jötunheim at some point.
Love the game overall. I am glad others felt the same about the plot being pretty messy towards the end. I think my biggest disappointment was not getting to see the real Tyr go all out as this realm's God of War. I felt they were building towards a big pay off for him but undercut it with the Odin twist.
Please have this crew back for another Deepest Dive soon. Or at least Kyle, if you can't get them all at the same time.
The more I think about this game, the lower my opinion of it gets. I like the overall theme involving kratos having to let Atreus go and subverting expectations by him living and becoming an empty-nester. But moment-to-moment, this game is very hard to take seriously. There's a lot of moments that feel like they are trying to be impactful that fall flat for me because there was hardly any build up. Fun to play and pretty game though.
I feel like they’re potentially planning two games for the future. One is going to be a smaller adventure, focused around. Atreus similar to Spider-Man, Miles Morales, and then you’re going to have the larger fully blown sequel that stars, Kratos and whatever he’s doing next
On another note, I thought the story of kratos learning who he is along with Atreus and learning to let go was very well done. Showing kratos just finally being tired of everything by how he drops the weapons In that scene. The conversations he has with his son. The relationship story telling between those two the entire game is just…. A masterclass imo.
I think some of the… sentiment in this final segment can be attributed to the speed in which the panel is playing the game, amidst all the other work and games and stuff to do around the same time.
I was over the moon playing this game, and as a result I was trying to savor every moment, completing as much as possible before getting on to the next "big" mission, because I also wasn't sure if Kratos or Atreus would make it out of Ragnarok alive.
I was so immersed in the story that I actually felt some kind of remorse to be doing side quests with Freya (particularly the second Hafgufa and the raider camps in Midgard) while Atreus was away.
As such, when I stumbled upon the Birgir rescue and subsequently opened up The Crater and adjacent areas, I was OVERJOYED. Not only is "a secret area that only diligent players will find" one of my favorite things in games, but it felt like YES– this is the place where I'll get to spend time with Atreus, and make some final memories before we walk into Ragnarok together, come what may.
I was happy to tick off all the additional boxes, complete the tasks and dust off one last send off of an area (one that felt large and substantial enough like it could be an expansion or indie game unto itself!), so I was a little surprised to see the panel rather down on it. I understand the time crunch though.
Sorry about the comment spam! I have so many thoughts about this game and no one to share them with IRL 😅
Everytime i look at odin, I see sir davos from game of thrones.
If they made it too obvious Odin was Tyr, y’all would be hating that it was so obvious.
But don’t give credit that Odin is a master manipulator. So of course he would be that deep into his character…
Atreus brought Tyr/Odin into Sindri’s House. Which is why he truly blames Atreus…that’s a big reason for his anger
As much as the ending didn't stick with me. The absolute onslaught from everyone against Odin throwing all they had at him was great.
Including Mimir who can only attack verbally, giving us the amazing "All-fucker" line and Odin responding with a "what the fuck did you just say" line mid fight.
Was honestly surprised how many negatives were focused on or things you guys felt missed the mark! Though, I do appreciate it not being a gross heaping praise fest, lol. I personally felt very positively about the last act so it's interesting to see all of the problems people seemingly had with it!
I do wonder though, did any of you feel that the 'rush' to finish the game in time for this podcast effected things for you or perhaps led to some of the confusion/things missing the mark? Happened last episode as well, but there were some questions you guys had that iirc were answered in dialogue around the time(s) the moments were occurring. In any case, great talk, guys! Looking forward to the next one.
Oof I'm 47 minutes into this one and the takes are already very bad. Some of the things you guys are complaining about, specifically with Odin, shows me you guys didn't explore or pay as much attention as you should have. Im normally very impressed with the insight the Deepest Dive panel brings to stuff, but so far, you guys are woefully missing a ton of the nuance the narrative offers when dealing with character moments and decisions. Oh well, I'll just have to hope the audience comments cover some of the greatness that is this game's narrative.
Take a drink every time Hanson says "Yeah, for sure."
2 minutes after the Tyr rescue I was like "this isn't tyr. This is Odin"
Was I happy to be right? I dunno.
Man I feel like I’m commenting a lot. Did she really say kratos didn’t earn the general title? He’s a god of war. His entire history earned him that. She wanted him to call back to that and not the current kratos. First she wants him to die simply for a story beat and now this. Love the show, clearly lol, but she seems like she doesn’t get the game.
"A Hole"
I never expected that to pay off that well. Never in a million years.
I highly disagree the Crater was lit 🔥🔥
I think ye had a really good discussion.
The game is great, but it does have weird flaws.
None of you have kids of your own? It's so clear just by stuff you're confused about.
I really enjoyed this discussion, and agree with a lot of the critiques the crew made; I actually have an even more negative opinion of the final third. For a game that tries so hard to be cinematic and movie-like, the weaknesses in its narrative, pacing, and characters stand out big-time.
In fairness, GOW:R is better than 95% of games trying to do these things, but that's a very low bar to clear. The fact that some people had visceral, gasping out loud reactions to things says a lot.
Thank you. This was thorough and enjoyable. You guys all had excellent insight.
Generally befuddled how nearly every scene "would have been better if they did this…" Nearly every time they give their preferred alternative I'm like nope, thank god yall didnt write the game.
Also taken aback how so many people could have so many questions about events. The game was pretty damn thorough, did people not listen to all the banter that explains nearly everything?
At the point Kratos and Atreus went hunting the dear, and Kratos helps Atreus through his emotions and helping him understand he has to go back and deal with the difficult problems, I was ready for it to cut back to gameplay and be us controlling Atreus and Kratos being the sidekick. Making us believe Atreus was now the main character and it's now his story. Obviously that never happened, but I was expecting it
I hope we dont have to wait long for the next deepest dive. Would love to see one for Callisto Protocol.
For someone who was supposed to be the have an understanding of Norse mythology.
At 44:20 Odin didn't want to have to moon to hurt anyone. Mimir said it many time Odin wants to control or prevent Ragnarok. Which is one why he captured Skol and Hotti, but as they were released capturing the moon also works.
Since most people know one of the starts to Ragnarok, is the wolves finally capturing their prey. Ergo the thinking is no moon to chase, means no moon to capture, means no Ragnarok. Which is one of the reasons Odin believed Ragnarok was adverted.
Not the perfect plan since as the game shows they subvert a lot of the standard Ragnarok prophecy, but that would be the logic.
I don’t think Atreus left because of prophecy. When Angrboda asked him if he told his dad and he said “tell him what?”, I believe that was him trying to put off talking about leaving, and Angrboda saying “giant visions, remember?” was her trying to tell him “dude I already saw it, I know what you’re gonna do”.
The actual Ragnarok part of the game was super anti-climatic.
I think the spear works on Heimdall because it was forged with that ring that randomly makes other rings. He can't forsee the random nature of when the spears will appear and disappear (though he can see how they move through the air) so he is unable to counter them. I think he also got distracted by his injuries and forgot how to deal with things he can't forsee so he got sloppy and Kratos was able to kill him.
Great stuff! Love the deep dives