What will it take for electric vehicles to truly dominate the transportation landscape? Can traditional automakers adapt quickly enough to the EV revolution, or will new players seize the opportunity? And how close are we to the holy grail of fully autonomous driving?
This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Dr. Andy Palmer, a pioneer in the electric vehicle industry. With over 45 years of experience in the automotive sector, Andy has witnessed the industry’s transformation firsthand – from his early days as an apprentice to senior leadership roles at companies like Nissan and Aston Martin.
Andy shares the fascinating story behind the development of the Nissan Leaf, the world’s first mass-market EV. He delves into the challenges of bringing this groundbreaking vehicle to market and how it kickstarted his journey from “piston head” to “battery head.” We also explore Andy’s time at Aston Martin, where he tried to steer the iconic British brand towards an electric future. Andy provides keen insights into the rapid evolution of battery technology, the role of government policy, and the future of autonomous driving.
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, EcoPragma Capital, Eurelectic, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle and how to become a member, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live
Links and more:
• Andy’s website: https://www.drandypalmer.com
• Michael’s writeup on AstonGate – https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/astongate-fake-emission-figures-embattled-carmaker-sock-liebreich/
• The need for plurality – Andy Palmer’s response to Rowan Atkinson: https://www.drandypalmer.com/post/the-need-for-plurality-in-response-to-rowan-atkinson
• Episode 175 with Greg Jackson of Octopus Energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-cRh35Hm4
Chapters:
00:00 – Intro
03:35 – Piston Head or Battery Head?
10:03 – Pioneering The Nissan Leaf
20:14 – Improvements in Batteries
29:17 – Criticism of EVs
33:55 – STEM Skills
37:03 – The future of Toyota
42:10 – Aston Martin’s EV plans
49:20 – Aston Martin Controversy
51:37 – Electrification of Buses
55:45 – Future of Self-driving Cars
01:04:43 – Outro
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Excellent
Why couldn't overtake Nissan the magnificent AC charging from Renault?
The ev evolution is not quite in the Renaissance era but close -with the Chinese ahead, it's gonna take a great change to catch up.
But it is possible.
On this journey in situ, the path becomes clearer.
A full circular system should be the ultimate goal.
-Net zero power
-inducing more outside gains to battery
-smaĺĺer dence but cheap( ion salt 🔋)
-level 4 for energy harvesting
Few companies have hurt the perception of EVs as much as Nissan with their rapidly-battery degrading Leaf and Nissans clinging to ChaDeMo even at a time when it was 100% clear everything in Europe would be CCS.
Kudos to you Andy I simply love my e-NV200 its the best van I ever had. I regularly rent it out at present 127 times. Everybody without exception loves it specifically how nice it is to drive. A shame Nissan seems to have lost their way after you left. For a first off van the e-NV200 has proved to be super reliable. Since I purchased it in 2019 I have had one service done for €634,- including a front tire change.
Byd has a hybrid that will go 2000 KM on one tank of gas.
❤ Thanks ❤
Perhaps someone can clarify: if batteries now cost $70 per kWh and batteries represent 40% of the cost of a car, how come a typical average BEV with a 68 kWh battery doesn't cost around $12000? The carmakers are more likely to charge $35000 and that's some markup!
Love Andy's honesty… left Nissan too early because he wanted to be a car company CEO.
Another fantastic guest on this show… one of the best sources of energy transition content on YT.
BYD Seagull Wuling Bingo Dongfeng Box Changan Benni EV Cars for 10.000 dollar Worldwide.❤👍👍👍
1h7m of utmost bullshit. Not worth my spit.
Cleaning up some of the b-s, good work.
Really old age experience will have recovered from learning by doing, the innate knowledge of, "it's always NOW" which a "rhyming not coppying" feel for Math-Physics music of harmonious numberness in techniques and related technology such as Computational Logic Devices that include both materials and organic in operation, ie computers are tools of the mind and are continuous connection concepts by default.
Galileo's Musical Mathematical Measurement Methodologies are the ultimate achievement in learning by doing, because innate quantization cause-effect is all about harmonic tuning-probability to reality, detecting the sonic feeling of the Ring of Truth, and this line of reasoning leads directly to the electronic version of QM Electrodynamic testing of theories in the Eternity-now Interval Conception.
In other words, the hands-on skills of Musicians and Motor Mechanics require us to keep the Apprenticeship reiteration of historical developments in appropriate applications current.
You cannot turn the output shaft on an internal combustion engine by hand because it so full of crap, It takes effort even with with a long ½ inch breaker bar
So much complexity, most of which has negative effect and/or is not to produce power but to overcome the inherent problems of the internal combustion engines design that cannot be engineered out
* Cooling system
* Oil system
* Cylinder, Piston, Rings
* Crankshaft
* Camshaft and Lifter system
* Valves & valve Springs
* Ignition System
* Fuel Injection system
* Exhaust System
* Turbocharger
* Supercharger
* Clutch-Torque Converter
* Transmission
* Dozens of Emission Systems
* Dozens of Diagnostic systems
You can turn an electric motor's output shaft with your bare hand
The electric motor only need a handful of supporting components to function
A V8 ice engine has a few power pulses during one revolution of the crankshaft but don't forget about that compression stroke, valve springs, and the internal friction sucking up that power even before it leaves the output shaft
The electric motor has dozens of power pulses during one revolution of the output shaft with very little internal friction
Interesting to peel back some of the politics at Nissan at the time. Also good to challenge the Hybrid statement. Saw the Aston Electric and it was as you say an aftermarket kit; battery in the engine bay etc. The Nissan Leaf was also not a dedicated platform. It is a modified B platform; Micra, Tiida.
The "battery will need replacing" argument is alive and well and the legacy manufacturers are almost silent on the subject.
Hmmm, Tesla robotaxi event in 2 weeks, will they show Level 5 technology?
literally just clicked the video to see just how indoctrinated this guy was
Great episode & Channel
It’s becoming a new cottage industry to repurpose the Nissan Leaf drive unit in a classic automobile.
Ev is more expensive. 60% of byd cars sold in china are actually hybrids. Evs are a disaster
From an economic point a view for the consumer and for the economy in general
Gentlemen – to quote “Old Farts” (same age as me) I am afraid to say that you are honestly really both out of touch with current Technological and commercial advances in Autonomy.
Part 1, SAE levels are irrelevant , other than being a useful conversational nomenclature . The only important metric is proof of safety the data for which IS now available .
Real World NN AI (not just LLM Models) operating on the basis of Photons IN & Actions OUT utilising vision only sensors works convincingly well that it genuinely excludes the need for granular digital Mapping of a “Sand Box” and can be deployed anywhere – subject to Regulatory approval
Part 2 True genuine Autonomy (no driver) is already an effective commercial service being used daily in China and USA (albeit in constrained areas applying C++ Code) . Sadly UNECE regulations remain a temporary but dissolving barrier for European and UK implementation at this time , but they are slowly relenting based on thier own experiences of product demonstrations from Tesla.
Should you need further evidence, I am happy to forward in car Video of Intervention free drives (supervised) in many challenging unmapped street and highway. routes in the USA
10th October will see the reveal of 2 new working product designs delivered without Steering wheel or pedals . These Robotaxis will enter volume production in Q2 2025 . I will own 3 and they will go to work for me as a Driverless Taxi . My DMs on X are open should you wish to debate further .
Jeremy Cooke
EV being an "economic solution" to travelling can only work IF the Government does not slap everyone with a road tax based upon pence per mile. Of which the current Government is hell bent on taxing the car driver into the ground.
Carlos might be correct, but he is being asked to step down!
A great listen, my hesitancy for EV is the fact I'm located 3000" up in a mountain valley, Winter can be 6 months long with a period of –30C.today, battery degradation is real & big, when will that issue go away!
The problem at least here in the United States is that we'd rather dedicate 80% of each tax dollars war and weapons than industry innovation and competing with a Chinese that have really been dedicating a large percentage towards future and current growth and developing a strong middle-class. Not an advocate for the rest of their politics over there but they are in fact growing
One important aspect of the future of cars that almost everyone overlooks is that electrics scale much better gasoline motors. The consequence is that a 'electric car' about the size of a Smart Car cut in half lengthwise will be a very practical single occupancy vehicle in the cities with a proportionally cheaper cost. The reason that hasn't happened so far is because internal combustion engines just don't scale down very well compared to electric motors. With electric single occupancy vehicles costing around $7k taking up half the width of current lanes mini cars will become very popular. Large EV cars for long distance driving will still be available but large cars in city centres with single occupancy will begin to be heavily charged and large petrol cars will be banned almost entirely by about 2035.
The future of EV's is mini not maxi.
and there are some wackey old guys who try to manipulate these chess games, al gore associate😎, they are some kind if socialista i presume, but they also have very comservative membera pushing 2030 very hard….
More and more ev makers will soon be bust jaguar will be next. Porsche has the right solution producing e-fuels so everyone can keep their cars. You can take a horse to water but can't make it drink. Extorting the public to buy ev's is undemocratic. Capitalism can only survive if consumers are given choice not indoctrination. Ford, GM, VW, Mercedes BMW ate going out of existence with the liss of thousands of jobs. Net zero is total BS! There are 1750 active volcanoes around the world with 20vactive every day and just one produces more noxious gases andcparticulates in one day than our petrol and diesels produce in a year. The biggest scam perpetrated on humanity ever is the Carbon tax was ceated by Lord Rothchild And Mauricet Strong ex Un environmentalist oil billionaire. The greatest tax ever invented nobody will mot want to save the okanet. What suckered we are to falk for utter BS so a few we'll offs get even richer and control us all. Mote people bought petrol and diesels continue to oursell ev's. They try and massage the figures but it's obvious that ev's are not the solution, governments know this but virtue signalling rules for now but not for much longer.
AC. Ipswich Suffolk
Great convo guys! But we're not going to reach L5 autonomy in your lifetime? Stand by, Tesla's 10/10 Robotaxi event is days away!🙂
The guy who lands rockets when all the experts said it was impossible, made electric transport trucks better than thought possible, made a cybertruck no one thought possible and so much more is about to reveal a robotaxi with no steering wheel Oct 10th. Tesla fsd has exponentially gotten better since AI was introduced this year. He might be a bit late with predictions like fsd but he almost always eventually comes thru and he is smart enough not to bet as much as he is on a robotaxi platform if it wasn't ready for market by production time coming soon. If he had doubts he would just be introducing the cheaper $25,000 models made with the new assembly line engineering. It will still take time to rollout and ramp up fsd robotaxis but anyone who has driven the recent fsd updates in a Tesla can clearly see it's coming soon…maybe not in India as mentioned for a while but definitely in USA and Canada and countries with similar road rules.
Thanks this is a really informative video. In the UK some of the negative 'stories' about EVs we see in the newspapers are laughable. Sadly many people believe their nonsense.
fake doctor
The problem is for people who don’t have access to their own charging station. And until public charging is under 7min it would never be fully adopted. You guys are smart, but clearly not that smart.
Crazy to say you need to have zero fatalities with autonomous vehicles.
Do you know how many people die every year, due to human error when operating a vehicle ?
Even if you could halve that number, the effect would be saving millions of lives over years, not to mention all of the horrific injuries sustained in vehicle accidents, caused by human failures, that could also be minimised. You both will definitely witness autonomous vehicles in your lifetimes
There was the EV1 by GM in the late 1990's. Granted, GM only leased them then took them back and destroyed them in front of their crying owners for some unknown reason.
EVs are the biggest scam ever foisted on the motoring public.
How many people buy a ICE car based on the size of the petrol tank?
Looking to put a negative spin on autonomy by people that seem to be close to UK regulators. The danger is that people like you will delay FSD for the UK and in the process cause more avoidable deaths on UK roads. By comparison Airline level of safety is NOT 100% safe unfortunately. The criteria mentioned to judge whether L3 is advisable or not. Autopilot on aircraft is a supervised system that takes cognitive load away from the driver/pilot. So Palmers arguments would preclude these on aircraft too. I don't think Palmer could convince pilots to give up these systems. I drive a Tesla. It has 8 cameras numerous active safety systems that have saved my bacon a couple of times. Many Youtube videos show these in action. The car temporarily seize control of the car from the driver to perform the avoidance manoeuvre. Compared to a Tesla a Leaf is a horse and cart. With such pathetic range they should never have been released to the public in the first place.
😮 shame on Aston Martin. they could have led the way instead of trying to confuse unfortunately lie 🤥
Nice podcast. I have an 2014 Tekna Leaf, with now 240.000km, still going strong and with no hiccups. Well back in 2010, when I started following the EV scene, my decision was never due to climate or CO2. It was all about cost and efficiency.
Just sold our 20011 leaf, range was less than 20 miles, was remarkably reliable, handbrake servo replacement would have been twice the value of the car. The BMW i3 we’ve had for 9 years shows little loss of range.
Leaf shared a lot of Verso parts
We drive a 2014 Leaf and SOH is at 89%, living in the north of Sweden.
Apart from battery fires, high tyre wear, insurance and repair costs, EVs are viable it is the electricity supply at reasonable cost with in the UK the cost being the highest in the World four times that of the US and not sufficient to power the economy without connectors never mind charging EVs and as goes the UK so goes Europe.