Link to forum thread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/473287-The-health-problem-of-hiding-numbers-while-catering-to-high-end-raiders
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The fight with Absolut Virtue was a battle in 2 fronts, You had to fight the beast itself but also the damn DM's who refuces to accept any victory if is not earn the way they wanted
ff11 was the reason i main white mage, oh the gil i made offof ports baby
FFXIV players have this warped sense of how Savage should be approached and also their roles whether they are Tank, DPS, or Heals. They put all these really high standards on themselves that normally only the best of players achieve and think that's the only way to beat Savage. When simply having a solid understanding of your rotation, not overextending for parses, and playing for the kill above personal achievement is all you need.
Hot take: some people are just shit at videogames and the balancing of endgane content shouldn't revolve around them.
I just wish the wall between normal and savage wasn't so high. I'm not talking about the design by square. But the fact you have to join statics and discord chats and watch/ read guides. Personally I wish I could play harder content without all the extra steps. There is a whole culture of mods and damage trackers that I feel keeps me from "finishing" the endgame
These forum posts are always funny lol. None of that is true xD
whats the name of the add-on you use to mark the text?
Savage is only too hard in the context of the only other difficulty being normal I think. And there being like no other core combat content. If someone prefers the core combat gameplay and doesn't do savage 14 has half an hour of content every 3 months, maybe 2-3 hours if they do extremes. Will criterion fix this? Possibly, but based on previous experience I'm not optimistic.
I also have issues with how the fights are designed. Because mechanics have such exacting pass conditions the fights very quickly go from feeling difficult to just being tedious, doing the exact same motions and waiting for everyone in your raid (including yourself obviously) to not succumb to human error for 10+ minutes.
I realise the content length comment above isn't "true" because we do the fights multiple times and the fact there's new MSQ but you get my point I hope.
I think comparing anything in 14 to 11 is a bit cray cray. I will say the savage tiers for EW has caused crazy burnout amongst RL and FF14 friends. The fights are just too bland and boring. A long list of DO THIS OR RESET fight after fight, cumulatively and physiologically is too samey, bland and tiring. Ultima EX was a breath of fresh air as is Barb EX (just faster, punchier paced figts). They need to cut hp of boss's massively and make them 5min crazy fests. . .not spending 5min before the fight really starts.
ff11 isn't hardcore, it's insulting
also the post here about savage/ultimate raiding really sounds like it was made by someone who has never actually raided
Hard and difficult are not the same. For example.
Bosses in certain older MMOs that take 5+, 10+ and up to 20 hrs are hard, because its hard to keep concentration for that long in a singular battle, but most of them aren't Difficult in mechanical execution. They are simply stamina battles that are draining.
Where to me Difficult has to do with handling and execution of numerous mechanics bosses throw at you.
Thus, 12 minute breakneck dps check boss with mechanical execution will be more difficult, whereas 18 hr target dummy with 4 or 5 mechanics will be physically harder to complete.
For some reason most MMO players I encounter think Hard = Difficult, but I having played many types of MMO and games in general don't think that to be the case.
When I ask for more difficult content, I have Mythic Avatar/ Kil'Jaeden/ Azshara, Shiva (savage), DSR in mind, not AV or old school Bayum with his 3 hr fight that had 4 mechanics and was snoozefest for anyone that wasn't melee, and even melee you had to wake up from mindlessly going through your rotation every few minutes.
It doesn't take effort to make Hard boss, but it take enormous effort to make a difficult one.
I was on the same server as Beyond the Limitation and remember it becoming a big deal on the internet when that happened. XI's response was to say they made Pandemonium Warden have a 2hr enrage without explaining any changes lol. As that post mentions, which may not be entirely clear, most hard bosses in XI have super high regen, so it's not that people are dying, but that they are throwing bodies at things while also trying to outpace huge regen and every death comes with XP loss like in Eureka/Bozja. XI also has enemies that do high damaging skills more frequently if more people hit them. The game devs also punished us for using unique strategies to beat bosses. One strategy was to have multiple Dark Knights use their skill to consume 10% of their current HP per hit to do straight damage with an ultra rare weapon (only 1 person on the server could get it on average every 2 weeks) that hits 2-8 times per attack while also using their 2hour cooldown skill that drains damage dealt as HP so they wouldn't kill themselves. SE was not having this and nerfed this strat for many things.
I think people over exaggerate the difficulty of ffxiv's savage content. Most the bosses can be beaten with a group that averages green on parsing as long as mechanics are done correctly. Obviously this means a few weeks in once they have obtained some gear. Savage is very casual friendly, the savage community however, is not.
I think the problem with FF14 raiding is that ultimates has raised the skill level of the top end of hardcore players so much that savage is no longer a challenge to them. Those players are also usually the loudest because of how invested they are in the game, and made a lot of complaints recently about how easy savage is. The dev team took these comments and up the difficulty every raid tier, but this causes midcore raiders who were perfectly fine with the current difficulty are struggling to catch up. This results to the sad result of Hardcore players continue to complain savage being too easy, while midcore players quit in frustration.
The dev team have a very tough choice to make here on where to push the difficulty. The quickest solution would be making a new tier of difficulty, either for midcore or for hardcore. But that will add alot of development costs seeing how hard it is to make ultimates in the first place.
Just thinking about AV makes me feel nauseated again 🤢 The horror…
I never played 11, but I have heard a metric shit ton about it. Apparently, you needed a party for literally everything that you did. You were waiting all the time to find a group and it was a very lengthy (and boring) process. Also, you did not get to pick which server you started on, so if you were playing with friends, you had to get a shitload of gold (I forget how much) and buy a world pass to pick a location because you got dropped into a random server.
I mean, you're right: shared trauma does create a sense of community XD XD XD
This sounds like a ticked off casual who thinks devs spending time on high end content is time waisted that could be spent on casual content and they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. I think High end content is borderline overly accessible aside from like DSRU
"Final Fantasy respects your time"
Yeah, TODAY it does.
Classic WoW was considered casual compared to, say, EverQuest, which FFXI was made to compete with.
Need to eat & sleep when your static starts making dumb mistakes, but if it is only one player, including the raid leader, they might need excuse themself from the raid or whoever ends up stuck on a fight mechanic, I've ran statics & found the static a replacement for myself because I just couldn't understand a mech & wanted them to get the clear before weekly reset …
Funny thing is, I jumped into this static having a problem on a much earlier mech on the same raid boss, & somehow we got it down … yes even tho I was the 'leader' doesn't mean you can't be kicked out when something looks that fishy.
The player I got to replace me was from this other groups static since they were done, but he'd only do it if I helped them get to the same point I was stuck on, a lot of the mech repeat … there is only so much you need to learn.
So my static kicked me out, fell apart … healers went to other statics, but I found out later they were waiting for a reason to leave but since they never talked & did their jobs well … we'll me clearing content with a another static they didn't was good enough.
And the other raid group I jumped into OT wanted to quit, & the MT didn't want to be MT anymore, he or she wanted to be OT. So I ended up with these guys as they MT, joined their FC, since mine FC kicked me out, mostly because I wasn't willing to explain to them what happened at 3am in the morning.
Was so much happer from this point forward raiding Alex back when it was new. We never cleared I had to stop playing for a few months that turned in to 6 years, came back 14 months ago so I could finish the MSQ. A few people I raided with did the same thing, a few even gave birth, twice.
btw, still looking for MT, OT spot, been looking for 6 months with no luck. Seems people have a problem with a Paladin tanking, involving burst damage.
Anyone know when they're going to re-do Paladin skills to add burst damage? And make it higher than the other tanking classes, so people will forget this Paladin can't do a fight?
As in when you quit smoking, you have to intake just slightly more nicotine then you got from smoking, otherwise whatever you're using to replace the old way has to be associated with the new way to get your nicotine, it is how I quit smoking was by using a vaping device with slightly higher levels of nicotine. And when I wanted nicotine my brain wanted the vaping device, & didn't want to smoke. And it is a lot easier to wean yourself off of nicotine when it comes in a liquid form.
btw, if the State you're in bands the sale of vaping hardware & ejuice, or just one or the other, or both it is not for your health, or the children, it is for big tobacco. Because if you're stuck in one of those states for any reason & run out of ejuice or you need hardware to keep vaping, you'll be forced to buy what you quit.
Okay that is a good rant.
partying on ff11 from..02 09.. 7-10hr exp partys was rilly common,most ppl wouldnt invite u if u only had 30min or 1hr to party. some of the best partys i had ther was 5-9hrs strait
There's a couple points in there…
Yoshi P and co, like teachers grading on the curve, most likely only want a certain percentage to clear the hardest content in the game. Last I heard, something like only <5% of the millions of players clear the hardest content (that's 1/20 people). That's still tens of thousands of people.
18+ hour bosses in FF11 are insane, but FF14 has nothing remotely close to that. In a game where there's no clout (most can't name the guild/raid team that cleared DSR first), there's no financial incentive ("FF14 only" streamers rarely have over 200 viewers), there's no real reward other than bragging rights… sacrificing work/school/family/life to raid 12+ hours/day, isn't worth it.
Not excusing AV at all, but from my understanding playing ffxi at that time and raiding, SE was nerfing the alternate methods because they were the ones that took 18+ hours, and the way they intended it to be fought did not. It's just that the way they intended it to be fought was cryptic and buggy so take that for what you will.
I will never complain about difficulty in FFXIV ever at all holy fuck
Yeah, very unlikely the difficulty will get too hard for most people outside of the Ultimates. If anything, I'm more worried they'll go too far in the other direction. I've often found myself in groups where I'm aware of all the mechanics and how to do them a few attempts in only to find it takes hours of wiping by teammates for it to click for them. Think a lot of that comes down to me just spending more time with the game than the average player, not trying to say they're bad. However, if a majority of players are struggling with raid content, they may decide to lower it a bit and that can be really hard on those that want more challenge but aren't up to the level of Ultimate fights yet.
I played 11 for a while, but it's been so long now that I barely remember it. This video brought so much back! 14 is definitely easy mode in just about every possible way when compared to 11. lol Still super fun, though! I'm just getting into Endwalker now. I do miss that sense of community, but most of that other crazy stuff I would have zero patience for these days now that I have actual adult responsibilities to deal with irl. 😆
18 hours? What a casual game. EVE Online is where it is at if you are into self-harm.
10:54 hi, we exist, yes I cleared DSR and savage this tier without any tools on PC, people is just waaay too interested on their "self worth" (parses)
As for the boss being killed and then having SE nerf the ways it was killed was because the first people to kill it made it bug out and therefore there was no fight, they just dps it to the ground out of the map, fun thing is, a GM was nearby watching and deactivated the loot from killing the boss, people were confused as to why, killing such a thing gave nothing, and it's because it wasn't killed as indented, the fight itself was a puzzle of sorts, and FFXI devs have a reputation of never giving hints on how to beat those bosses, and Absolute Virtue had access to limit breaks, in particular the healer's limit break which made it heal to full near the end of the fight, after so these things started happening (people vomiting and such) the devs decided to give a hint on how to half or completely remove that insane self-healing… it depended on the weather and magic used against it, so no wonder, no one even thought about that, this was 2 years after it was added to the game
Please SE, don’t make 14 harder, we have 11 for that still.
Remember… people thought molten core was hard back in the day.
Current savage and ultimates are hard-ish.
Below that, there is nothing else difficult in the entire game. Nothing. It's beyond easy, you can literally only 1 button smash and clear anything in the game.
These casuals want to ruin every aspect of the game because they don't want easy, they want free.
The truth is the tiers are hard on week 1 gear, and the game is deceptive not telling you all the data, is true the measurement of being able to clear the boss is the min ilvl requirement you have to queue up in the first place, so yes if you can queue up you can kill it that is the general idea FF give you that landmark, meet the ilvl requirement and you can get the boss, what does not tell you is the closes your ilvl is the to min ilvl to queue up the hardest is the fight you need to play all perfectly in order to kill it, the more ilvl you have the easier it gets and you get more leniency to make mistake, miss a rotation or die but as we can all see the top statics can clear the entire tier in one day or two with the min ilvl but that is playing perfectly with no mistakes by any member, the game is balanced around that week 1 crafter gear, now the more gear you have you can cover mistakes by other members of your static or PF group making clears more successful I think in order to mitigate some frustration they should disclose the min ilvl to queue and the RECOMENDED ilvl so people who are not so hardcore can farm the first bosses, get week tomes and upgrade some parts before challenging the next bosses.
FF11 player here 🙋🏽♂️
There's a reason why I haven't even attempted to touch current content. Savage in final Fantasy 14. I've done the hardest core gaming I ever will in my entire life in final Fantasy 11 and I am okay with that. Lol
But Tanaka and Sage Sundi's goal for 14 was to basically make a prettier 11. Some may disagree but I'm wholeheartedly pleased they failed. I hated 1.0 because it was so obvious they hadn't learned anything.
Imagine leveling down while trying to kill a boss
LEL the OP is from Balmung…no wonder they hold this opinion xD too caught up in ERP
Not everyone who wants to play FFXIV has been playing games for years and has managed to develop the needed skillset. If there were more extreme trials or another tier, the casual playerbase would likely complain less about savage. One, because there's more content for them to do, two, the gap to higher-level content wouldn't seem as impossible to reach, and three, it's more content that people can do without having to find a static. I'm not saying savage should be easier, that's a bit silly, just that a pathway for upskilling the average player would probably benefit everyone. Less-skilled players still help to keep the lights on with their subs, and have the potential to be decent with a bit of help and encouragement
FFXI was known as the game that had the /pizza command to remind players to eat occasionally.
Older MMOs and Older MMO Devs seemed really fond of making raids and bosses that took a long time to kill, I never had to spend 18 hours doing anything but I recall multiple games where you had to spend 3+ hours in a single raid or fight with no breaks. I feel like it all goes back to Everquest, specifically when Blizzard was scalping developers from EQ's top guilds, but I don't have a lot of research to prove that.
Honestly I'm glad that game design has changed, it takes a lot of my focus to do a mechanic heavy savage raid for 2-4 hours, I'm usually pretty wiped out after doing a couple lockouts of Savage and that's with plenty of breaks between those 15 minute pulls. There are some things I wish would be more transparent, like our stats effects on enemies and such, but overall I support the newer wave of design philosophy over the older one.
One thing I don't like about the way savage raids have evolved in FFXIV is that in order to blind prog, you basically have to use some form of external tool, even if it's as simple as a stream capture. Screenshots could suffice, and I suppose that's an internal tool, but you have to look at those shots outside of the game. The puzzles have become so intricate and complex, and it's clear they're catering to the world first crowd by creating ever-more difficult puzzles to solve.
I have fun in 24-man raids, because the puzzles are solvable (without a party wipe) usually in the first attempt, but almost always by the second attempt. It's too easy for my tastes, but the last couple of fights (at least) of each savage tier seem to skip over a happy medium all the way to very difficult (with Ultimates being just ridiculously difficult).
For a typical savage tier raid group, how many times will they wipe *even when the puzzle has already been figured out and they're just mimicking published strats**? Is is really that fun to just learn movements without really needing to understand the puzzle and why those movements or actions solve it? Or even if you do understand all that, the real fun is **figuring it out for yourself.* In my opinion, SE has made it too heavy a lift for your casual raider to do that. I'm not sure if this started with 6.x tiers, but my personal satisfaction from clearing these fights has dropped way off this tier. And it seems the same for my group, where before, when we cleared, we cheered. Now, we don't really. And my hands don't shake anymore when we're pushing 1% on an enrage cast. (Maybe that indicates the opposite of what I'm arguing — that the fights have gotten easier….)
I bet you could look at wipe data and see that in normal raids and 24-man raids, the number of wipes is minimal, but in the upper echelons of savage tier fights, the number of wipes is massive. So I guess what I'm saying is that the "missing middle" would be fights where the number of typical wipes would be somewhere in between those extremes. Fights where you can observe — in game and in the moment — what's going on, without having to go back and review footage or screenshots of tooltips, and have a chance at discerning why you wiped each time you wipe.
It does sorta suck when it feels like the devs are catering more and more to the elite / full-time gamer crowd. I would still argue for having two tiers of savage content. Same fights, same mechanics, but higher boss damage and tighter dps checks. Let the world first crowd race for that tier, and let the rest of the player base enjoy a slightly more relaxed savage tier that doesn't take a 4-hour/week raid group 3 months to clear. (Oops, I just threatened their business model.)
I honestly thought the game was to easy basicly topped my char in 2 months completing all hard content and dropped the game after I'd say more hard content plz
Ff14 becoming soft af for weak minded "participation trophy kids" is why im quitting FF14. I want a game with challenge. Bye bye baby game
I played FFXI in college and every other MMO has seemed super easy ever since.
How do you know what killed us? "I had my eyes open.." how do you know I'm not doing my rotation right? "I see your spell effects" Also I apologize in advance for the summoner my static unleashed into P8S who does only AOE as his rotation. People say the games too hard, well we had to 7man P7S.
The only ones having to hurt themselves for clears are people like me that can't get lucky with party finder. half the people wipe to easy stuff and then want to blame healers like myself for their inability to position properly for mechanics. It would help if the devs would not stack AoEs to where you have no margin for error, or make small animation differences tell you what the boss is going to do next instead of having a cast bar. The fact that they are going to that much length to appease the top 5% of players that actually want the content to be that cryptic and difficult shows they have no idea how many people log on and just afk in Limsa wishing they could do savage, but can't because it is too much for them to handle. I feel like Stormblood was probably the height of the raiding community. The vast majority of the Omega raids had that perfect balance between fun and challenging, and are also a great example of fan service done right. Even on the hardest content, MMOs are supposed to be a casual experience, and the difficulty of the current tier is anything but, gating a solid 80% of the playerbase out of the challenge.
Just showing that anyone can make a post, no matter how ill-founded. If anything, FF14 is more on the casual side.
Checked out the ff logs of op. Haven't even cleared asphodelos. Think they are projecting a bit when they say impossible goal. Just get good.
Hi zepla. It feels good seeing you YouTube again 😉
As someone who played FFXI from 2005 until the release of FFXIV 1.0, I can attest to the fact that EVERYTHING in Eorzea has been better than XI since day one. I never fought Absolute Virtue, but I was in hardcore linkshells for years and I regret how badly the rest of my life fell to the wayside.