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11:36 FIGHT!
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AIM-9J vs AIM-9M was too much for the argies….which it probably would be in reality too.
I think it would have been pretty close in practice. The British struggled to maintain a CAP of two harriers at all times during the conflict, and had no airborne early warning. The first sign of a strike would have been when the Argentines would have been picked up by the T22/42 ships a few miles out from the carrier. This wouldn't have been enough warning to prepare and launch additional harriers to meet the threat. As such, those 8 Skyhawks would have been met by only two harriers, carrying only 2 sidewinders each. One or two may have been picked off by the escorts. But even in a best case scenario, a couple of Skyhawks would have gotten through, and may have had enough punch to disable one of the carriers.
Another Great scenario but the real one was a lot more scary and closely matched.
On the 1st of May 1982 the Argentinian's located the British Fleet using a Civilian 707 and the help from Russian intelligence, they prepared to strike with an armada of one cruiser, five destroyers, three corvettes, and the Veinticinco de Mayo, with dozens of land-based aircraft providing air cover.
Prior to the attack the Argentinians flew over 104 sorties of various aircraft including Mirages, Daggers, Skyhawks Canberras and many others ), to feign the air defences of the British fleet. From around midday onwards Sea Harrier pilots were in regular contact with the Argentine aircraft, some of which broke off rapidly at the first sniff of a Sea Harrier, others fired missiles and cannon at the British fighters but almost all missed (though there were one or two close shaves).
It was to be a pincer movement with the Belgrano was attacking from the South and the Argentine Aircraft Carrier was further North, and starting with a Submarine torpedo attack.
The Torpedo attack failed but allegedly one struck a major British Vessel, possibly due to it being fired too far away and too deep. Subsequently, four Super Étendards armed with Exocet missiles and 8 A4 Skyhawks with 4x500lb dumb bombs and 30mm cannon, were to follow up in the hope that the British would be busy dealing with the casualties resulting from a successful torpedo hit.
Once the Air attack was underway the Belgrano and her escort ships were to then attack the British Fleet with more Exocet missiles from the escorts, followed up by the Belgrano and her 15 x six inch guns to devastate the remaining British ships.
The A4's were due to start the air attack, taking off the Carrier first, as they were the slowest and fully loaded with maximum fuel but they could no do so as there was a lack of suitable wind and the aircraft carrier could not sustain more than 15 knots. The Argentinians decided to remove three bombs from each aircraft to enable them to take off and were preparing to launch when they were spotted by a Sea Harrier on CAP and decided to abandon the launch and retreat to safety.
What the Argentinians didn't know was that HMS Splendid had been tailing the aircraft carrier for at least two days before the arrival of the Fleet and had it in her sights but as they were outside the exclusion zone they were not allowed to engage, unless aircraft were launched.
If the A4's had been launched the British fleet would have been attacked by at least 4 Super Étendards armed with Exocets first and followed up by the 8 Skyhawks with their escorts. The and Canberras used for "mopping up" after the main attacks
It was a very bold and well thought out plan.
Obviously the British knew what the weather would be and that the Argentinians would struggle to get the A4's into the air but not the Harriers but they took the threat so seriously, that they eventually approved sinking the Belgrano as an "imminent threat" even though she was outside the Exclusion Zone.
British nuclear Submarines used sophisticated monitoring equipment to track Argentine aircraft departing from the mainland, whilst RAF Nimrods and Canberras flew from Chile, providing a rudimentary AWACS.
This scenario is a brilliant example of how submarines act as a peerless force multiplier. Argie Navy kept bottled up in port by the mere threat of silent underwater death-dealers…
Only six sea Harriers were shot down, none in air to air combat and four GR 3s were lost in the Atlantic Conveyer sinking.
It would have been sunk long before it got to The Falklands by the two nuclear subs that were patrolling the waters just hoping that the big juicy target aircraft carrier would come out to play.
IR missiles are not your friend, I think at least 4 A4s and a couple harriers went down to friendly IR missiles
My Alexa keeps lighting up 😂
Argentina had no defence against British hunter-killer submarines. Pulling their carrier out of action was was simple common sense.
can you do a flotilla of refit iowas vs a carrier fleet.
MALVINAS
Not Falkland…
UK, Pirates forever…
Can I get a vector.
No no you can't.
Cap playing all seeing eye is great haha.
Really interesting scenario– it's essentially weapon systems from 1982 fighting a type of engagement we haven't seen since 1942.
Well done GR– thanks to you all.
really interesting but dont agree much on the AIM9M thing.. true the AV-8B doesnt have the radar the Shar had but it still carrier 9Ls .. it still had to get within visual range anyway and get into firing position (despite the L being multiaspect it was used all the times from the rear cuadrant). The 9M gave the Harriers here a much bigger advantage as most kills seem head-on
Argentina’s aircraft Carrier wouldn’t have been serviceable for very long simple as that.
It would have the same fate as the Belgrano.
Alexa paused the video lol
I think in reality the carrier would be sunk by Royal Navy submarines just like ARA General Belgrano.
Lol -It would have been sunk immediately, there was a British SSN shadowing it, as soon as the Belgrano was sunk, the carrier legged it for its home port. The SSN asked for permission to sink it, but London said no.
Cap. What if the RN still had HMS Ark Royal (R09) on active duty with the Phantoms and Buccaneers
Falklands fighter pilots were using VT get the AOA. Loss of energy didn't matter.
Just so you know i had to turn off my akexa speaker because of this video lol
*THEIR* NOT HER. NOT HIS. ITS A FKING NATION
If they had not retreated, Royal Navy would have found a new home for the Argie Carrier sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic.
You're correct with your opening statement, however the Argentine Forces would have suffered a heavier defeat than they did if they had put their carrier out to and lost eight more aircraft which were used against us later. Another thing you have to consider is that we had 200 F4 Phantoms, 200 Buccaneers, 165 Jaguars (a/c with the longest range) back home had these got to the Chilean Islands that the Nimrods were using, it would have been a very one sided fight. Plus if every one of us servicemen had our own way (all 330,000 of us) we would have been down there such was our resolve. Finally one point that you have to remember is New Zealand offered resources to the U.K and were politely declined. We specifically contained the fight to the Falkland Islands and not to the Argentine mainland and quietly the Argentinians should be grateful we fought the Falkland campaign with much restraint and also from a diplomatic perspective as this minimized casualties on both sides. Also don't forget Argentina were also after Chilean territory in the Terra Del Fuego area!
Argentina's lack of use of it's Aircraft Carrier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Veinticinco_de_Mayo_(V-2)
was not for want of trying.
The problem was – that their ship was old – and just couldn't go as fast as it needed to – to get enough wind across the deck to launch bombed up aircraft. It could launch them w/o bombs – but that was only of use to fly them back to land – and operate from there.
IF they'd had some natural wind – they might have done it. They were heading into what wind there was – but – it was a relatively calm day ….
They kept on trying, steaming as fast as their old ship would go – into what wind there was – but carrying ordnance – they just couldn't launch. It had a catapult but even new – had never been able to go over 25 knots. Now – much older than it was when it could do 25 knots – it was slower than that.
They were professionals – and they KNEW how much wind over the deck they needed to have to launch bombed up aircraft. They just couldn't get it.
The trouble here – was that steaming into the wind – was taking them right towards the British Fleet. Lacking any desire to take their Aircraft Carrier into a surface action … they finally gave up and headed back to port.
During peace time – they'd been able to launch lightly loaded aircraft and having an Aircraft Carrier – enhanced their prestige – which was their ships prime function up until '82. That – and they could launch bombed up aircraft – if they had some help from nature. Things didn't play out for them though and their old ship just wasn't up to doing what needed to be done without Natures help.
Once the Belgrano had been sunk by a submarine – they restricted their carrier to port.
.
Why do you not ever seem to include the concept of CAP. It's something that all fleets with carriers do. They have airbourne assets always airbourne to defend the fleet. They will have both air superiority and anti-ship assets ready to go. None of this launching rubbish, as soon as any threat is detected, which 200 miles would considered Action Stations, they assets will be brought to ready stations ready to then launch defensive actions…
Also a hint to the Harrier pilots. it's caled VIFF (spoken viffing iirc), which is vectoring in normal flight to literally stop in mid air. They don't actually stop, but compared to other conventional aircraft, they seem to stop dead, they A4s would over shoot and instantly the Harriers can get a solution.
Also pilots would not stay out so far alone. Sad to say your tactics are not good.
Brit sub !!! Job done next 🍺🍺👍
You mentioned “viffing”. No RN pilots employed viffing during the Falklands war and it has Never been used in air combat.
Ask the captain of the general belgrano what would of happened
@3:40 The original Sea Harrier did NOT have the superb Blue Vixen RADAR it had the capable but potentially difficult to operate and tune Blue Fox. 801 squadron (Invincible) made good use of the Blue Fox – 800 squadron (Hermes) didn't and sent planes out on ridiculous Mk1 eyeball recce sweeps instead – which cost us at least one ship and probably three where 801 would have been sweeping positions ahead of the ships with RADAR, the 800 cap was sitting above the ships trying to spot attacks by eye! If 801 was holding cap instead of 800 at the time HMS Coventry and Sir Galahad would have probably averted their fatal attacks. We found out after the war that Argentinians used to look for the Sea Harrier RADAR blips and avoided contact with them – aborting some 450 missions – 2,000 bombs that were never dropped – so 800’s silent operation actually encouraged Argentinian attacks. When 801’s squadron leader attempted to assist 800 with their operation of Blue Fox they blankly refused and pretty much accused him of lying about the performance of Blue Fox which 800 regarded as little more than dead weight!
Secondly the Argentinians DID try to attack with her carrier on May 1st – they spotted the British task force first and were within strike range – they were poised to launch an airstrike but they were completely reliant on having a strong headwind to get fully-armed and fuelled aircraft off the deck as the carrier’s defective boilers were incapable of making enough steam get the carrier up to a suitable speed to assist takeoff. A rare calm day saved the British from attack, that evening (after the attack should have happened) Ian Mortimer stumbled across the Argentinian fleet whilst patrolling in his Sea Harrier (a single sweep of his RADAR lit up the whole fleet!) The Argentinians detected this sweep and turned the fleet around and steamed away – the very next day Belgrano was sunk and the Argentinian carrier fled home. Incidentally at the time of Mortimer’s discovery flight, three type 42 destroyers (Sheffield, Coventry and Glasgow) were deployed 30 miles ahead of Hermes between it and the Argentinian fleet (though Morts was from Invincible).
@7m – The British Sea Harriers only carried 2 sidewinders during the Falkands – even though 4 was theoretically possible and 801 did not at 24 aircraft available – they had eight Sea Harriers which dropped to six after a mid air collision – eventually being reinforced up to ten mid May. (11, 9 then 13 pilots.)
The ground attack Skyhawks were NEVER fitted with any sidewinders during the Falklands.
The original Sea Harrier was far, far more nimble than AV8B and more than A4 as well. so this dog-fighting is no where near accurate, the Sea Harrier pilot could just bleed off speed drop behind and turn to catch the A4 in a flash – low altitude burst is Harrier's forte – a drag racer up to 500 knots.
The Brits didn't have flares or chaff this early in the conflict – they only arrived as things were coming to a close.
They didn't have any anti-submarine capability so they were never going to be able to use their carrier.
Without anti sub capability, your entire surface fleet is just target practice for enemy subs.
Simples!
seems like the sun position played a part in this
It wouldn’t become an artificial reef like the battleship
Great battle, as always!
Small point, but the Harriers operated Blue Fox radar at this time, Blue Vixen was the next generation and was available a few years after this conflict.
I worked at Ferranti on the Blue Fox radar in the late 70s.
You mention the Harriers would be VIFFing (Vector in Forward Flight) to get missile lock on the enemy jets if it were real RN pilots. This would not be a true reflection of that conflict. I believe the Harrier was the first jet to use vectored flight in this way, but it was not until the US marines got their hands on them that it was used as a tactic!
Commenting as I watch, the usual problem again with these simulations is the steady stream of air craft launching one by one, where they would fly a race track to at least pair up as wingmen if not 4s, or 8 or more
The difference in aim9 generations really showing in the opening fight!
It would have been sunk by the sub
44:50 I'm certain that Argentinian aircraft didn't actually get missiles away at HMS Invincible. I've only seen this claim from Argentinians, and their source appears to be, "I made if the f**k up!". This is likely mistaken with an incident where ARA Super Étendards and Skyhawks set out to attack Invincible but instead targeted a seperate group of escorts. The carrier was not present.
well a lot of imput here:
1) Historically wise, ARA 25 de Mayo had a pretty even chance against both RN CVs, the fact that UK carried more planes does not equally means they were auto-delete capable of Argentine Aircraft. ARA 25 de Mayo tried a surprise strike on UK TF, aiming to disable a CV during may 1st 1982, lack of wind prevented A4 to take off with propper load so mission was aborted. But a 8xA4Q strike that might had caught the RN by surprise might have resulted in 3/4 bomb hits on one carrier, render it unusable for the rest of the conflict and badly hampering the air cover for the amphibious operation. Even if all 8 A4 would have gotten shutted down, and even if no CV were sunk, the strategic victory would still had been enormeous. Remember that Argentina had the continent and the Islands on it's favor, UK on the other hand relied heavily on the CVs.
2) a Major point in the conversation is the CAP on the 3 carriers. If i remember correctly, both UK carriers had a 2xHarrier cap in the air at least during daytime, Argentine Navy used to have 1xA4 CAP. But against a quick strike of 8 jets (Arg) or up to 15 planes (Uk) those cap wouldn't had been enough. Moreon since every cap would be close to their own carrier and maybe circling. Combat Readyness would be some inner matter to debate, since rearm and refuel takes time IRL.
3) Both Argentine and British CVs were escorted by Type 42 destroyers with Sea Dart, a superb platform against high altitude flying assets. UK wouldn't had been able to perform Air to Surface missile strikes since they didn't had on stock, and the fact that Argentine CV had a very good AWACS platform in the S2E (a big problem on UK task force was the lack of early warning due to lack of propper AEW/C media) i'd say that it would had been harder for the British to sink the 25 de Mayo than for the Argies to sink one UK CV.
4) ARA 25 de Mayo had a top speed of around 25knots but more realistic were 20 to 22knots. While it could cruise 18knt with no problem. It had only 3 escorts, 2x Type 42 (mostly AAW with some ASW capabilitys) and 1x Gearing FRAM II (mostly ASW but partially obsolete). Along with that were 6 S2E Trackers (pretty decent ASW platforms, but not enough numbers for a complete 360° 24/7 screen, maybe only frontal 180° degrees which as enough against proximity courses from conventional submarines) and 3xSea King, 2 of which carried ASW equipment, that were mainly used as vectorized platforms to investigate and attack contacts. This by 1982 standars was a pretty good, i dare to say the best battle group in the southern hemisphere and among the top 10 navys in the world (let alone the other ships in Argentine navy stock.
5) Uk on the other hand had the strategic weapon that was definitive against Argentinean Navy, that were the SSN. SSN had a 2x speed of the 25 de Mayo, and had long range (unreliable) tigerfish torps, they could hunt and sink Arg CV, and UK Intel pointed the relative location once in a while. So… ARA 25 de Mayo had to return port after the strike, it didn't matter if Belgrano was sunk or not, the strategic picture was that Argentine carrier only had one chance to launch a strike before getting hunted by SSN. In fact both navys knew this and therefore HMS Splendid (the newest SSN) was after the 25 de Mayo. It was somehow close to sink it? well maybe, it was as close as 19nm behind the 25 de Mayo on May 3rd 1982, but the Argentine navy did a pretty reasonable retreat route, it went for shallow waters, in which SSN can't deploy their max speed for safety reasons, and while sailing north the continent "blocked" all the left flank, and S2E trackers were used to screen the right flank. That was a pretty clever strategy that paid off since splendid COULDN'T Sink the Arg. CV because it was hunted down by the ASW patrols
Sumarizing: Royal Navy had 1 extra carrier and more planes, but that does not equal air superiority if you don't have the intel on your enemy's whereabouts (remember Midway everybody?). Also your strikes are as good as what your enemy has to defend itself. S2E Tracker represented an advantage in enemy fleet detection and waring against incoming strikes, while surface escort were somehow leveled. Maybe the 1st of May strike would had been a huge failure, all 8 A4 destroyed even before dropping bombs.
The conqueror would have been sent to send more Argentines to the bottom of the sea
It would have been sunk, the same as the Belgrano.
Fun battle, one question though, why no Exocet missiles for the Skyhawks?
[RAF Laughter intensifies]