26 thoughts on “Was Joel a Monster? – The Last of Us”
Joel wasn’t even close to the villain, the fireflies didn’t even know if it would work completely & we’re still willing to kill a child on a chance, he saved a girl he came to think of his daughter, any father wouldn’t do any different, the world took Sarah from Joel so Joel to Ellie from the world, it’s kind of poetic
I'm seriously trying to figure out how Joel is a monster here. Within the gameplay, you are basically on the run from the military (that had no qualms gunning down you and your daughter), hunters, raiders trying to sack your brother's community, cannibals, and lastly Firefly soldiers that knocked you out cold while you're administering CPR to a little girl. And then kidnap said girl and prep her for a procedure that will kill her WITHOUT her consent. So again, how exactly is HE the monster? Society has gone to shit with people trying to kill or take from you every step of the way; you play it smart with the cards you are dealt. And I doubt anyone would react any differently.
Not a monster but definitely a horrible person who racked up a ton of karma that eventually found it's way back to him. Also damn did the original game always look that ugly?? I'm glad we got the remake now.
back when i was younger and less mature, this is exactly the question that made me doubt my enjoyment of the game. i couldn't appreciate good writing that was nuanced like this
Whether you agree with Joel or not, whether you hate him or love him, can we all just agree that the way he died in the sequel was really, really stupid? I'm hoping beyond hope that the show runners of the upcoming TV adaptation won't adapt the LOU pt 2 into the second season and rewrite the whole sequel and give Joel a proper send of.
Joel had a RESPONSIBILITY to Ellie and was protecting her due to that. He does NOT have a responsibility to the world and they were going to dissect a CHILD without her consent. Why is this a question??? Joel didn’t need to be Ellie’s biological father. He took over that role himself and a parent SHOULD do exactly what he did. A parent instinctively is going to protect their children against ANYONE trying to harm them and he is NOT wrong for carrying out that role. His duty was to her, not anyone else and we know this isn’t wrong because if HE was the one they needed to dissect in order to get the cure we know he’d do it. He’d be willing to give up his own life. He is not selfish – he acted as a father SHOULD and is biologically made to do. We know this is right because if we lived in a similar situation and the CDC wanted to dissect a child to get a cure for COVID and the parent killed all of them we’d never fault the parent. We’d say that parent did was he was supposed to do – protect their child and not find him at fault at all.
Call it what you want, but all of us if placed in the same situation would had done the same the difference would be how effective each of us would be in that scenario probably the majority would had died in the first chapter of the game
Good points you made, unfortunately we don't know the extreme lengths Joel did to survive only small comments from his brother and having his daughter killed by people who were meant to protect them propably just steeled him even more to trust nobody let alone humanity especially as a single parent because somtimes the only thing that keeps you going after truma like he experienced is the people really close to you an nobody else. I think with Joel now is, if your not a friend then you are a potential threat until proven otherwise. Maybe Naughty dog should make a game based on the life Joel had after his daughters passing up until The last of us part 1 ?😞
Loved this essay, truly. I don’t know if the creators hated Joel though. I think they made Joel’s death in Part II extremely brutal because they needed the player to REALLY HATE Abby, in the hopes of pulling said player back from that darkness.
I think it's clear Joel did some very immoral things. What interests me more is why so many players had such a vitriolic reaction to his death. I think part of it has to do with Joel's proximity to real life father figures. The other part is that TLOU2 forces the player to reckon with the falsehood of their own moral calculations. Evidently, most people can't handle that.
I sided with Joel I yelled for him to take out everyone to save ellie he's not the hero he is the Villain with a heart a man who was pushed and suffered at the hands of others so he became what they deserved
lmfao you made a whole video in 2023 to breakdown a game thats been broken down many times for over a decade. and the worst part of it all, you chose and focused on the dumbest and most obvious non-controversial subject matter that he chose to save Ellie for his own selfish reason. Every parent or guardian to a child would have done the same. one of the main tropes to the ending to stories is the protagonist dilemma. are you loyal to the mission, or are you loyal to your friends (family). both are equally right. there is no wrong here and it falls to the writer/show to depict the difference. in this case, we followed Ellie's journey, he had to save her. he's loyal to her, even if he had to lie to her for her own good. thats the trope. there is nothing controversial here.
and you breaking it down like its something deeply philosophical is hilarious.
Joel found redemption. But being a former hunter, which are known for raping, pillaging, and murdering, he definitely committed some monstrous acts during his time with them
Joel is definitely a scumbag lol. People that were mad about the last of us part 2 overreacted because they liked the character, but if you think about it you can't say Abby wasn't justified
The great thing about Joel as a character is that he was neither a monster or a hero. He was a morally ambiguous character in the best way possible, and he did what many folks in his position would have done… survive.
Sure, he did many things that many people in our standard society would deem horrific, but so would anyone in the post-apocalyptic environment he lived in. He lived in a time where the world was overrun by infected fungus zombies, so he had no choice but to adapt and "get with the times", so to speak.
And also, there was likely no chance of a cure for the cordyceps even if the Fireflies succeeded with operating on Ellie. This is a mutated mushroom we're talking about here, not a typical virus or a disease.
On top of that, let's be honest, humanity as it is shown in The Last of Us probably doesn't deserve to thrive on anyways, regardless of whether or not there were still good and decent people alive. I mean, pretty much everyone on Earth is either a remorseless bandit or an infected humanoid with no sense of a conscience left.
Anyway, my point is, Joel is a reflection of the world he lived in. He's not a bad person in the traditional sense, but he's not morally righteous either. He did what he did because he was a human being who acted on what he thought was right specifically for him. That's what makes him a fascinating character.
No Joel is not the bad guy in this story. Why you ask, well in a end of humanity scenario like this everyone would do anything for survival and I mean anything. In a world like this that evil moral compass just disappears for everyone. In real life these choices people make will be morally questionable, but it wouldn’t be in a world like that. Obviously for us the players in real life we will obviously react to these horrible choices/actions and judge them, but if we ended up in a situation like that then we would also commit these horrible actions. Even that side is a part of humanity, just look at all the greed, all wars etc.
Joel wasn’t even close to the villain, the fireflies didn’t even know if it would work completely & we’re still willing to kill a child on a chance, he saved a girl he came to think of his daughter, any father wouldn’t do any different, the world took Sarah from Joel so Joel to Ellie from the world, it’s kind of poetic
I'm seriously trying to figure out how Joel is a monster here. Within the gameplay, you are basically on the run from the military (that had no qualms gunning down you and your daughter), hunters, raiders trying to sack your brother's community, cannibals, and lastly Firefly soldiers that knocked you out cold while you're administering CPR to a little girl. And then kidnap said girl and prep her for a procedure that will kill her WITHOUT her consent. So again, how exactly is HE the monster? Society has gone to shit with people trying to kill or take from you every step of the way; you play it smart with the cards you are dealt. And I doubt anyone would react any differently.
Not a monster but definitely a horrible person who racked up a ton of karma that eventually found it's way back to him. Also damn did the original game always look that ugly?? I'm glad we got the remake now.
No all I’m going to say.
so underrated.
yes
back when i was younger and less mature, this is exactly the question that made me doubt my enjoyment of the game. i couldn't appreciate good writing that was nuanced like this
Whether you agree with Joel or not, whether you hate him or love him, can we all just agree that the way he died in the sequel was really, really stupid? I'm hoping beyond hope that the show runners of the upcoming TV adaptation won't adapt the LOU pt 2 into the second season and rewrite the whole sequel and give Joel a proper send of.
Joel had a RESPONSIBILITY to Ellie and was protecting her due to that. He does NOT have a responsibility to the world and they were going to dissect a CHILD without her consent. Why is this a question???
Joel didn’t need to be Ellie’s biological father. He took over that role himself and a parent SHOULD do exactly what he did. A parent instinctively is going to protect their children against ANYONE trying to harm them and he is NOT wrong for carrying out that role. His duty was to her, not anyone else and we know this isn’t wrong because if HE was the one they needed to dissect in order to get the cure we know he’d do it. He’d be willing to give up his own life. He is not selfish – he acted as a father SHOULD and is biologically made to do. We know this is right because if we lived in a similar situation and the CDC wanted to dissect a child to get a cure for COVID and the parent killed all of them we’d never fault the parent. We’d say that parent did was he was supposed to do – protect their child and not find him at fault at all.
How do people not understand this???
Call it what you want, but all of us if placed in the same situation would had done the same the difference would be how effective each of us would be in that scenario probably the majority would had died in the first chapter of the game
Good points you made, unfortunately we don't know the extreme lengths Joel did to survive only small comments from his brother and having his daughter killed by people who were meant to protect them propably just steeled him even more to trust nobody let alone humanity especially as a single parent because somtimes the only thing that keeps you going after truma like he experienced is the people really close to you an nobody else. I think with Joel now is, if your not a friend then you are a potential threat until proven otherwise. Maybe Naughty dog should make a game based on the life Joel had after his daughters passing up until The last of us part 1 ?😞
Loved this essay, truly. I don’t know if the creators hated Joel though. I think they made Joel’s death in Part II extremely brutal because they needed the player to REALLY HATE Abby, in the hopes of pulling said player back from that darkness.
Why are you using ps4 remaster version?!
I think it's clear Joel did some very immoral things. What interests me more is why so many players had such a vitriolic reaction to his death. I think part of it has to do with Joel's proximity to real life father figures. The other part is that TLOU2 forces the player to reckon with the falsehood of their own moral calculations. Evidently, most people can't handle that.
you don't survive 20 years post-apocalypse without being a straight savage
Nah, those mean doctors deserved to die.
I sided with Joel I yelled for him to take out everyone to save ellie he's not the hero he is the Villain with a heart a man who was pushed and suffered at the hands of others so he became what they deserved
lmfao you made a whole video in 2023 to breakdown a game thats been broken down many times for over a decade. and the worst part of it all, you chose and focused on the dumbest and most obvious non-controversial subject matter that he chose to save Ellie for his own selfish reason. Every parent or guardian to a child would have done the same. one of the main tropes to the ending to stories is the protagonist dilemma. are you loyal to the mission, or are you loyal to your friends (family). both are equally right. there is no wrong here and it falls to the writer/show to depict the difference. in this case, we followed Ellie's journey, he had to save her. he's loyal to her, even if he had to lie to her for her own good. thats the trope. there is nothing controversial here.
and you breaking it down like its something deeply philosophical is hilarious.
Joel found redemption. But being a former hunter, which are known for raping, pillaging, and murdering, he definitely committed some monstrous acts during his time with them
He's just doing what we'd all do in an apocalypse
He isn't a monster he is Micah
Yes but what human isn’t?
Joel is definitely a scumbag lol. People that were mad about the last of us part 2 overreacted because they liked the character, but if you think about it you can't say Abby wasn't justified
The great thing about Joel as a character is that he was neither a monster or a hero. He was a morally ambiguous character in the best way possible, and he did what many folks in his position would have done… survive.
Sure, he did many things that many people in our standard society would deem horrific, but so would anyone in the post-apocalyptic environment he lived in. He lived in a time where the world was overrun by infected fungus zombies, so he had no choice but to adapt and "get with the times", so to speak.
And also, there was likely no chance of a cure for the cordyceps even if the Fireflies succeeded with operating on Ellie. This is a mutated mushroom we're talking about here, not a typical virus or a disease.
On top of that, let's be honest, humanity as it is shown in The Last of Us probably doesn't deserve to thrive on anyways, regardless of whether or not there were still good and decent people alive. I mean, pretty much everyone on Earth is either a remorseless bandit or an infected humanoid with no sense of a conscience left.
Anyway, my point is, Joel is a reflection of the world he lived in. He's not a bad person in the traditional sense, but he's not morally righteous either. He did what he did because he was a human being who acted on what he thought was right specifically for him. That's what makes him a fascinating character.
Great nuance and analysis 👏🏼
No Joel is not the bad guy in this story. Why you ask, well in a end of humanity scenario like this everyone would do anything for survival and I mean anything. In a world like this that evil moral compass just disappears for everyone. In real life these choices people make will be morally questionable, but it wouldn’t be in a world like that. Obviously for us the players in real life we will obviously react to these horrible choices/actions and judge them, but if we ended up in a situation like that then we would also commit these horrible actions. Even that side is a part of humanity, just look at all the greed, all wars etc.