The intro scene of Sarah being killed is such a punch in the gut. It's within the first 15 minutes of the game too, setting up that nothing is off limits. What other game kills a child in the intro?
Yes the actual writer of the original Last Of Us, is a complete veteran at writing morally gray and complex characters. She did write most of the Legacy of Kain series in particular the Soul Reaver series. Joel much like Kain himself is a morally gray and complex character, Amy Henig is an absolute LEGEND.
It comes down to the point of view of the individual; especially in this game. Short answer is yes, Joel was wrong and the best way to confirm this is by what each person who knew or was involved in this decision thought. The Fireflys obviously believed Joel was wrong, Ellie's response upon discovering Joel's lie showed us where she stood on this selfish choice, and the crucifying truth in the pudding is the fact that Joel lied to Ellie which tells us that he knows his action was self centered and would condemn the world. Joel decision was as human as human can get, sacrifice and blood paved intentions no matter which way you slice it. Joel did many morally questionable things under the impression of necessity like when Ellie confirmed Joel was a raider, slaver, killer, thief etc in the past so it can be said that him killing the Fireflys falls into this as well. The difference now is he did this for his own selfish need to be a father once more and to hell with how it impacts everyone else, he lied because he was afraid Ellie would reject him and he knew she would when she found out and even he acknowledged he was wrong but would do the same thing regardless a second time. Personally I think Joel screwed humanity but at the same time I understand his choice; and believe he should be ready to accept the consequences of such actions.
The summary at the of the video is kind of off base.
I don't think the writers intended they player to think the cure could work
IIRC the recording you find automatically at the end of the university mission before Joel gets injured plays in a cutscene.
However, after you get control again you can play the whole tape without the cutscene with Joel fast forwarding the tape.
When you play it the scientist says right out that the cure doesn't work.
Later when Joel finds out Ellie will die for a cure that won't work he stops it.
He was willing to let them give it another try just in case it might work when he didn't know Ellie would die.
The whole speech Miranda gives Joel about Joel knowing it etc. Was just BS propaganda brought forth because she thinks she is doing the right thing even though there no evidence the cure will work.
While Joels loss in the HBO show was well done it doesn't compare to Troy Bakers performance in the game. Joel's begging both his daughter and God not to do this crushed me. The first game is truly a masterpiece
Hey! Couple of notes here as someone who knows A LOT about the cordyceps fungus. Cordyceps IS a zombie fungus. It just doesn't effect humans. It mostly effects ants because it can't survive in high temperatures. The Last of Us was based on the hypothetical scenario where the cordyceps fungus would mutate because of global warming and be able to survive in human bodies. In the show, the virus begins in China because it is used for medicinal purposes there and spread around the world. An expert on it in China states that there is no cure for it because it is a fungal infection. The show also features an interview with an expert on diseases and pandemics who states that the worst case scenario for a global pandemic would be a fungi like cordyceps mutating. While the game is based on a hypothetical situation, the same science applies, as confirmed by the Last of Us HBO show.
The fireflies’ capability to make a cure is irrelevant to Joel’s arc. Joel did what he did for selfish reasons, not because he doubted them. The question of if the fireflies could do it is fun and all, but not at all the point of the ending.
Something that is missing here is the leader of the fireflies part in all this. Marlene was willing to sacrifice Ellie without her consent. Marlene kept Joel from seeing Ellie. Why? She removed autonomy from both Joel and Ellie. She lost Joel’s trust. To Joel she was just another betrayer. Imagine if Marlene allowed Joel and Ellie to see each other prior to the surgery. They would have talked it out and Marlene may have still gotten what she wanted a cure being made. At least Joel could have gotten to say his last goodbye to Ellie, to deny him that is cruel. What if Ellie and Joel decided, no, we won’t consent to this we will go back to Tommy’s after Ellie gets older, she could go back and have them make a cure. I think Marlene was so focused on making a cure at all cost because of all the bad things she did as a leader of the fireflies. This would redeem her morally. That’s probably why Tommy left the fireflies after seeing her in competence. He probably gave her advice that she refused to listen to. Marlene was also cruel sending her troops at Joel as cannon fodder she could have called off the attack at any time and allowed Joel to see Ellie. Also I believe Joel was right about there being other people immune to the virus. Unfortunately the military killed anyone who tested positive. There was a woman at the start of the game who was possibly immune to the virus but the soldiers refused to listen to her and just killed her. They would have killed Ellie. Just some things to think about.
The debate over this "moral quandry" is a good analog for the simplifications done in physics thought experiments. "Right" choice for Joel or humanity or Joel's friend group or Joel's community or Ellie's family lineage or what? Without precise, quantified goals for what we want to optimize, determining the "right" thing to have done is basically impossible. The range of reasonable assumptions, given what's presented and implied in the game is simply too large.
This essay droped at 37:30. … Bruh. If you use the "It is not real" argument why bother with essay at all? And I agree with you with arguments for the people who say "It would never work FOR CERATIN. – 37:33". Why bother with those people in essay anyway. The game is about: What if. Its a game and thank god for not being it real… I can agree, again, that fireflies went through a lot. So THEY want to do somethin that would justify their losses. By killling a girl. For hope. For the people they have lost on the way. … Dont bother with people who say things like It wouldn work FOR SURE! (even that writers hinted that it would probably wouldnt… imidietly. Later with more data? With more time and not dying?) You are not makeing this vid for those people. They dont care. We cared since 37:30. … Anyway. Good work! Keep it up please.
If the writers intended to have Elle's death be a viable path toward a cure then why didnt they write it that way? The world AS WRITTEN is not in a state to research, manufacturer, and dispense a vaccine on a state, national, or global scale. There is nothing that indicates they will even learn anything from killing her. Make the Fireflies stronger as a faction. Or show some half cured dead people, or some cells in a lab, anything to show they NEED a non symptomatic infection to take the next step.They dont, they just show them being desperate terrorists with a dream. The Fireflies are high as hell on their rebellion and will do anything to justify their mental gymnastics.
Your video essay highlights why LoU2, isn't just a bad game, it actively pisses me off. LoU1 shows us through Joel an incredible lens into true masculinity. Not the hollow toxic masculinity that we see from Sephiroth, and Cloud's misplaced idolism of Sephiroth's masculinity.
LoU2 spits in the face of true masculinity. It gives us Abbey, a character who, if she had been a man, would have been a much better cast choice. I personally disagree with making Ellie gay, but that's a personal gripe. I think LoU1 can be seen as a metaphor for traditional family values in the modern world. Not all of those values are healthy, but they'll last a hell of a lot longer than everything else, because it intrinsically values building up, rather than tearing down.
They way i perceived Joel's character: A good person, with a good heart. He has to do what's right for him in a world that does the very same thing. But given the choice he wouldn't be that way… Now his decision to lie to elie at the end, i dont know, for me that was messed up. I agree with his decision to save her,(you wouldn't expect him otherwise after all he's been through) but that messed me up. I wish the game ended in a different manner!
When you discover someone has developed an immunity/symbiotic state with the disease virus bacteria fungus responsible for wiping out the planet. you dont kill them, you use their blood to develop antibodies you foster an environment receptive to breeding more immune/symbiotic and you make more. theyre cutting open the goose in an attempt to get a golden egg rather than doing literally anything and everything else.Joel made the only rational move
I believe you are correct, if they showed the fire flies making cures and being successful but with massive draw backs (for example the "cure" fixes the zombie part but effects your heart immediately and you die a slow and painful death anyways), different tests with different draw backs, I'd be more willing to believe they can get it right eventually. But all they did was show failure to even synthesize a cure from the beginning. I don't trust them that this will be anything different. Joel, in the story they told, DID NOTHING WRONG!! Worse more, they killed him in the most despicable way, by fan baiting people into buying the second game, and then bashing his skull in 3 hours in after making him make decisions he'd never have made. AND THEN MAKE US PLAY THE WH*** WHO KILLED HIM!!!! F**K NAUGHTYDAWG!!!!!!!!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬
The fireflies were terrorists and wouldn't have used the vaccine for good, only as a weapon against the government to further cause chaos. Besides, it's impossible to make a cure from an immune person due to how their immune system works anyway.
The only character flaw I can see with Joel is that he doesn't allow himself to feel/ grieve. Without that the only thing that's left for him is rage and it comes through with every fight scene he goes through and yes that's with you playing as him. I can't think of anything I would've done differently in his shoes though. Really nobody can coz they've never been there
Fun fact game theory said that she is infected just with a different type of the fungi that fungi is stopping other fungi from infecting her and it's not possible to make a vaccine for fungi 😂 these scientist are not good scientists also if you guys want to know we're I learned this game theory
Joel didnt murder any innocent people at the end lmao. Shit during the whole game. The only innocent people we can even somewhat say he killed is when he made an offhand comment about those hurt person traps. None of the Fireflies are innocent.
I love when people say Ellie can choose to die but then say that it would be wrong if Joel and Ellie hooked up. If you cant consent to sex you cant consent to self-sacrifice. Sex is way less impactful than death so explain that.
I think Joel and Tess most definitely feel for each other. I think that in the world they are in emotional baggage carries harsh risks and there is a thick boundary survivors carry in their relationships with one another. When Tess is bitten it's not that Joel doesn't care, it's that the moment is routine and being someone Joel cares for makes the situation almost impossible for either of them to process. This is why Tess says " make this easy for me" she's saying don't go there, we know this is over… Treat this routine so I can keep the focus on the hope of this mission meaning something bigger then what I'm losing (everything)
The ironic thing about Joel’s emotional growth is that if he got Ellie to the Fireflies before they bonded, he definitely would’ve handed her off without a second thought. That in itself is very well written
I didnt even see The video yet but i will say whit no hesitation at all that he was right ok like i dont give a f about The Human kind i will save The one i love ok, for all of those Who are against it i have a question:"would you like to have a parent that will save you whit The cost of killing thousounds of People?
The last of us exists as a world of moral and ethical grey areas, some light and some very dark. It wasn't right from the point of view of the fireflies or anyone who's died to the infection afterwards, but seldom does the actions of joel prove to be enough. Well intentions or not choices have consequences is the underlying theme it's a question that will be debated perpetually. One i'll never fault him for, i'll never know what it was like to lose a daughter the way he did but i'll at least understand where he's coming from literally witnessing these parts of his journey.
The simple solution if they wanted us to have any remorse for rescuing ellie was to show us that they told her what would happen to her and let her make the decision. The fact that they hid it from her and it only slipped out to Joel was unforgivable and they deserve what they got.
The moral puzzle makes his character even more amazing. I love how at the same time that I was tearing with joy for when he saved Ellie, I was crying about how he had to kill all those people and sacrifice the cure
Yeah I dont think a random veterinarian, with limited resources and technology would have been able to creat a vaccine for a fungus thats just imposible.
I feel like in the first game, the Fireflies were intentionally depicted as very dubious and untrustworthy people. In game 2 it feels like Neil had changed his mind on them and tried to retcon them into being angels
Personal Happines/Fatherly love: Right
Humanity: Probably.
Abby's Father/Abby: Wrong
Depends.
The intro scene of Sarah being killed is such a punch in the gut.
It's within the first 15 minutes of the game too, setting up that nothing is off limits. What other game kills a child in the intro?
Yes the actual writer of the original Last Of Us, is a complete veteran at writing morally gray and complex characters. She did write most of the Legacy of Kain series in particular the Soul Reaver series. Joel much like Kain himself is a morally gray and complex character, Amy Henig is an absolute LEGEND.
Every time I watch examinations of this game I see more and more nuances in the writing. Easily the best written game ever.
Great video man.
It comes down to the point of view of the individual; especially in this game. Short answer is yes, Joel was wrong and the best way to confirm this is by what each person who knew or was involved in this decision thought. The Fireflys obviously believed Joel was wrong, Ellie's response upon discovering Joel's lie showed us where she stood on this selfish choice, and the crucifying truth in the pudding is the fact that Joel lied to Ellie which tells us that he knows his action was self centered and would condemn the world. Joel decision was as human as human can get, sacrifice and blood paved intentions no matter which way you slice it. Joel did many morally questionable things under the impression of necessity like when Ellie confirmed Joel was a raider, slaver, killer, thief etc in the past so it can be said that him killing the Fireflys falls into this as well. The difference now is he did this for his own selfish need to be a father once more and to hell with how it impacts everyone else, he lied because he was afraid Ellie would reject him and he knew she would when she found out and even he acknowledged he was wrong but would do the same thing regardless a second time. Personally I think Joel screwed humanity but at the same time I understand his choice; and believe he should be ready to accept the consequences of such actions.
The summary at the of the video is kind of off base.
I don't think the writers intended they player to think the cure could work
IIRC the recording you find automatically at the end of the university mission before Joel gets injured plays in a cutscene.
However, after you get control again you can play the whole tape without the cutscene with Joel fast forwarding the tape.
When you play it the scientist says right out that the cure doesn't work.
Later when Joel finds out Ellie will die for a cure that won't work he stops it.
He was willing to let them give it another try just in case it might work when he didn't know Ellie would die.
The whole speech Miranda gives Joel about Joel knowing it etc. Was just BS propaganda brought forth because she thinks she is doing the right thing even though there no evidence the cure will work.
all real doctors would refuse to take the life of someone in order to produce a vaccine
While Joels loss in the HBO show was well done it doesn't compare to Troy Bakers performance in the game. Joel's begging both his daughter and God not to do this crushed me. The first game is truly a masterpiece
Hey! Couple of notes here as someone who knows A LOT about the cordyceps fungus. Cordyceps IS a zombie fungus. It just doesn't effect humans. It mostly effects ants because it can't survive in high temperatures. The Last of Us was based on the hypothetical scenario where the cordyceps fungus would mutate because of global warming and be able to survive in human bodies. In the show, the virus begins in China because it is used for medicinal purposes there and spread around the world. An expert on it in China states that there is no cure for it because it is a fungal infection. The show also features an interview with an expert on diseases and pandemics who states that the worst case scenario for a global pandemic would be a fungi like cordyceps mutating. While the game is based on a hypothetical situation, the same science applies, as confirmed by the Last of Us HBO show.
People who think “Joel was the bad guy” either didn’t understand the whole story, or just have a very poorly developed sense of morality.
The fireflies’ capability to make a cure is irrelevant to Joel’s arc. Joel did what he did for selfish reasons, not because he doubted them. The question of if the fireflies could do it is fun and all, but not at all the point of the ending.
You're not a butthead, some people just don't know how to not be biggots, you keep doing you. Nice vid!
Something that is missing here is the leader of the fireflies part in all this. Marlene was willing to sacrifice Ellie without her consent. Marlene kept Joel from seeing Ellie. Why? She removed autonomy from both Joel and Ellie. She lost Joel’s trust. To Joel she was just another betrayer. Imagine if Marlene allowed Joel and Ellie to see each other prior to the surgery. They would have talked it out and Marlene may have still gotten what she wanted a cure being made. At least Joel could have gotten to say his last goodbye to Ellie, to deny him that is cruel. What if Ellie and Joel decided, no, we won’t consent to this we will go back to Tommy’s after Ellie gets older, she could go back and have them make a cure. I think Marlene was so focused on making a cure at all cost because of all the bad things she did as a leader of the fireflies. This would redeem her morally. That’s probably why Tommy left the fireflies after seeing her in competence. He probably gave her advice that she refused to listen to. Marlene was also cruel sending her troops at Joel as cannon fodder she could have called off the attack at any time and allowed Joel to see Ellie. Also I believe Joel was right about there being other people immune to the virus. Unfortunately the military killed anyone who tested positive. There was a woman at the start of the game who was possibly immune to the virus but the soldiers refused to listen to her and just killed her. They would have killed Ellie. Just some things to think about.
Team Joel. You can't leave your daughter.
This guy misses the point so much lol
The debate over this "moral quandry" is a good analog for the simplifications done in physics thought experiments. "Right" choice for Joel or humanity or Joel's friend group or Joel's community or Ellie's family lineage or what? Without precise, quantified goals for what we want to optimize, determining the "right" thing to have done is basically impossible. The range of reasonable assumptions, given what's presented and implied in the game is simply too large.
I really feel like the Fireflies are anything but innocent.
Joel was a monster and deserved every inch of that Abby’s peace pipe…
This essay droped at 37:30. … Bruh. If you use the "It is not real" argument why bother with essay at all? And I agree with you with arguments for the people who say "It would never work FOR CERATIN. – 37:33". Why bother with those people in essay anyway. The game is about: What if. Its a game and thank god for not being it real… I can agree, again, that fireflies went through a lot. So THEY want to do somethin that would justify their losses. By killling a girl. For hope. For the people they have lost on the way. … Dont bother with people who say things like It wouldn work FOR SURE! (even that writers hinted that it would probably wouldnt… imidietly. Later with more data? With more time and not dying?) You are not makeing this vid for those people. They dont care. We cared since 37:30. … Anyway. Good work! Keep it up please.
F*ck you and your video. I always cry in the scene Sarah dies. You made me watch it again.
I'm eating chicken, my hands are messy, I couldn't skip it
If the writers intended to have Elle's death be a viable path toward a cure then why didnt they write it that way? The world AS WRITTEN is not in a state to research, manufacturer, and dispense a vaccine on a state, national, or global scale. There is nothing that indicates they will even learn anything from killing her. Make the Fireflies stronger as a faction. Or show some half cured dead people, or some cells in a lab, anything to show they NEED a non symptomatic infection to take the next step.They dont, they just show them being desperate terrorists with a dream. The Fireflies are high as hell on their rebellion and will do anything to justify their mental gymnastics.
Your video essay highlights why LoU2, isn't just a bad game, it actively pisses me off. LoU1 shows us through Joel an incredible lens into true masculinity. Not the hollow toxic masculinity that we see from Sephiroth, and Cloud's misplaced idolism of Sephiroth's masculinity.
LoU2 spits in the face of true masculinity. It gives us Abbey, a character who, if she had been a man, would have been a much better cast choice. I personally disagree with making Ellie gay, but that's a personal gripe. I think LoU1 can be seen as a metaphor for traditional family values in the modern world. Not all of those values are healthy, but they'll last a hell of a lot longer than everything else, because it intrinsically values building up, rather than tearing down.
Hey Abby is immune. I prove this with 100% absolute truth. I wanna hear what u think about it
You mean Bill was right.
They way i perceived Joel's character:
A good person, with a good heart.
He has to do what's right for him in a world that does the very same thing.
But given the choice he wouldn't be that way…
Now his decision to lie to elie at the end, i dont know, for me that was messed up.
I agree with his decision to save her,(you wouldn't expect him otherwise after all he's been through) but that messed me up.
I wish the game ended in a different manner!
When you discover someone has developed an immunity/symbiotic state with the disease virus bacteria fungus responsible for wiping out the planet. you dont kill them, you use their blood to develop antibodies you foster an environment receptive to breeding more immune/symbiotic and you make more. theyre cutting open the goose in an attempt to get a golden egg rather than doing literally anything and everything else.Joel made the only rational move
I believe you are correct, if they showed the fire flies making cures and being successful but with massive draw backs (for example the "cure" fixes the zombie part but effects your heart immediately and you die a slow and painful death anyways), different tests with different draw backs, I'd be more willing to believe they can get it right eventually. But all they did was show failure to even synthesize a cure from the beginning. I don't trust them that this will be anything different. Joel, in the story they told, DID NOTHING WRONG!! Worse more, they killed him in the most despicable way, by fan baiting people into buying the second game, and then bashing his skull in 3 hours in after making him make decisions he'd never have made. AND THEN MAKE US PLAY THE WH*** WHO KILLED HIM!!!! F**K NAUGHTYDAWG!!!!!!!!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬
The fireflies were terrorists and wouldn't have used the vaccine for good, only as a weapon against the government to further cause chaos. Besides, it's impossible to make a cure from an immune person due to how their immune system works anyway.
Yes he was.
The only character flaw I can see with Joel is that he doesn't allow himself to feel/ grieve. Without that the only thing that's left for him is rage and it comes through with every fight scene he goes through and yes that's with you playing as him. I can't think of anything I would've done differently in his shoes though. Really nobody can coz they've never been there
Fun fact game theory said that she is infected just with a different type of the fungi that fungi is stopping other fungi from infecting her and it's not possible to make a vaccine for fungi 😂 these scientist are not good scientists also if you guys want to know we're I learned this game theory
Oh and game theory thinks that the creators know she is infected
Joel didnt murder any innocent people at the end lmao. Shit during the whole game. The only innocent people we can even somewhat say he killed is when he made an offhand comment about those hurt person traps. None of the Fireflies are innocent.
The ONLY bad thing Joel does in this entire game is lie to Ellie at the end.
I love when people say Ellie can choose to die but then say that it would be wrong if Joel and Ellie hooked up. If you cant consent to sex you cant consent to self-sacrifice. Sex is way less impactful than death so explain that.
I think Joel and Tess most definitely feel for each other. I think that in the world they are in emotional baggage carries harsh risks and there is a thick boundary survivors carry in their relationships with one another. When Tess is bitten it's not that Joel doesn't care, it's that the moment is routine and being someone Joel cares for makes the situation almost impossible for either of them to process. This is why Tess says " make this easy for me" she's saying don't go there, we know this is over… Treat this routine so I can keep the focus on the hope of this mission meaning something bigger then what I'm losing (everything)
Yes. He was right. I don’t believe in the trolly dilemma, there’s nothing inherently immoral about being selfish in his context.
I feel like you still severely misunderstand the story lol
The ironic thing about Joel’s emotional growth is that if he got Ellie to the Fireflies before they bonded, he definitely would’ve handed her off without a second thought. That in itself is very well written
I didnt even see The video yet but i will say whit no hesitation at all that he was right ok like i dont give a f about The Human kind i will save The one i love ok, for all of those Who are against it i have a question:"would you like to have a parent that will save you whit The cost of killing thousounds of People?
the thing that you dont take in mind is that there is no wrong and right
I always thought Ellie knew Joel was lying at the end but she just accepted it out of love for Joel.
The last of us exists as a world of moral and ethical grey areas, some light and some very dark.
It wasn't right from the point of view of the fireflies or anyone who's died to the infection afterwards, but seldom does the actions of joel prove to be enough. Well intentions or not choices have consequences is the underlying theme it's a question that will be debated perpetually.
One i'll never fault him for, i'll never know what it was like to lose a daughter the way he did but i'll at least understand where he's coming from literally witnessing these parts of his journey.
The simple solution if they wanted us to have any remorse for rescuing ellie was to show us that they told her what would happen to her and let her make the decision. The fact that they hid it from her and it only slipped out to Joel was unforgivable and they deserve what they got.
Honestly, whichever end of the debate you choose to go with, I don't think either viewpoint is really wrong. I think both are in their own way, right.
One of the greatest game ever written, as a father I’d do everything Joel did without blinking an eye
The moral puzzle makes his character even more amazing. I love how at the same time that I was tearing with joy for when he saved Ellie, I was crying about how he had to kill all those people and sacrifice the cure
Yeah I dont think a random veterinarian, with limited resources and technology would have been able to creat a vaccine for a fungus thats just imposible.
I feel like in the first game, the Fireflies were intentionally depicted as very dubious and untrustworthy people. In game 2 it feels like Neil had changed his mind on them and tried to retcon them into being angels