Joshua Ryan Butler joins the podcast to talk about the reality of hell and the goodness of God’s wrath. We discuss some common misconceptions about hell and respond to a deconstruction TikTok that claims hell is a product of Hebrew, Greek and Norse mythology and was coopted by the church to control people with fear. Watch for Josh’s response!
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Preface: I haven't watched the video. The word 'hell' comes from the Norse concept of Hel, which is equivalent to the Biblical Hades/Sheol (Greek/Hebrew respectively). This is the underworld—a holding place for the dead before judgment. Before the atonement of Jesus, there was a place in Sheol that was reserved for the righteous that was like Paradise. The only reason this existed was because the necessary atonement had not yet been purchased on the cross. When Jesus died and snatched the keys to Hades, He led the righteous from that realm to enjoy His presence in heaven. Now, the only inhabitants of Sheol are those who are unredeemed and await final judgment in the lake of fire, which a different place—Gehenna. Jesus used this physical place to make an analogy to how the lake of fire will be: a dump of refuse that continuously burns.
Unfortunately, the Christian Church has lumped Sheol in with Gehenna and translated it in our English Bibles to 'hell'. That doesn't make it a mythological place—just a word that early English speakers would have been familiar with.
I think you are on to something regarding God’s ultimate purpose with judgment being to protect us from those who sin, hurt and destroy. Your analogies were hell as a quarantine or of a Tupperware holding sinners. I do see the purpose of God’s final judgment as the same in purpose and power. However, take a deeper look. The examples in the Bible in which God poured his wrath out to accomplish this purpose on earth in the past like the flood, or God extending eternal fire to burn up Sodom and Gomorrah: the events results in the destruction of the sinners. It wiped them out. In 2 Peter we are told these are examples of what is going to happen to the ungodly at final judgment. Do you think it is possible for God to accomplish the same thing by destroying the unjust? Are we sure sinners are inherently immortal and able to survive the cup of God’s wrath poured out on them at future final judgment? If so, and sinners are kept in a state of spiritual death but some form of life in a quarantine Tupperware for all eternity how can we as Christians affirm that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death?”
Jesus when he spoke of hell as final punishment was translated from the word gehena a.k.a the valley of hinnom in which God nicknamed "the valley of slaughter." because that was the nature of his justice over the wicked who sacrificed their children in Gehena. How that depicts eternal torment is beyond me. The wages of sin is DEATH (Apollumi: Utterly kill, Slay). A state in which you cannot sin. Objectively Jesus was not speaking of a fiery underworld. Gehena is a real place that Jesus used as refference that the Jewish people would know of namely from the book of Jeremiah. Its about time the church wakes up and not believe in gimmicky teachings.
A singer/songwriter w NO theological background or education.. doing a video on hell. Huh. Seen it all now.
According to these passages, the wicked are cast into the pit (which I imagine would make sense as outer darkness which would cause weeping and gnashing of teeth when they realize they are left out of the kingdom in New Jerusalem). After a few days, they are visited. Our Lord is no longer angry and asks for them to come under his protection and make peace with him. After being shown favor in what appears to be the New Kingdom ( land of the upright) after the 1,000 years are up they do not learn righteousness. They attempt to attack New Jerusalem and are incinerated for good. It's interesting to note that they come up on the breadth of the earth. Up from where?
Isaiah 24:21-23
KJV
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isaiah 27:2-5
KJV
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.
Isaiah 26:10-11
KJV
10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.
11 Lord, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
Revelation 20:7-10
King James Version
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:1-6
KiJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Disappointed with this video, I’ll have to say. And I never comment but I felt like I had to.
It was confusing and I wasn’t sure where it was going..
I don’t find your other videos to be like this one.
Your guest and his videos on his YouTube channel remind me of podcasts like, The Bible is for normal people, and teachers like Pete Enns.
Thoughts like this don’t add up and aren’t biblical.
Did he just get out of bed?
And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss. [Luke 8] He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. [Luke 16]
You are so judgemental!!!
I love♥️ you and your channel thanks to your trader I've been making over 173k dollar in the last 2months with an investment of 29k dollars Money can be made even in a bear market…
I didn’t feel like it was a good enough response to the TikTok video? She said that we got it from Greek mythology?
Great discussion on God's wrath… however, the issue of the nature of hell was skirted around a lot. Hell was mentioned as an eternal place of suffering and then the discussion was diverted ASAP. I love Alisa… however, even though Jesus did speak a lot about hell, Jesus never once talked about the eternal nature of hell as she stated. I do get that it would seem that way, but not one verse can be produced where Jesus or the apostles state that there is eternal conscious torment, save for one verse in Revelation, where the beast, the false prophet and the devil were said to be tormented day and night forever – none of whom are human agents.
Also, a quick reference by Joshua to annihilationism being comparable to "Marry me or I'll kill you/ snuff you out"… and that it is not actually merciful… would you consider "Marry me or I will torture you for eternity" to be more merciful? The logic of that analogy does not compute. Best you steer clear of "marriage-or-else" analogies altogether.
Are there any REAL Christians out there who SHARE the Gospel? Feed the poor? Look after widows and orphans? Organizing Christian fellowships? ALL I see are a bunch of authors PUSHING ON SOCIAL MEDIA what they believe to be "Christian" books and conducting SEMINARS FOR FILTHY LUCRE. Gimme a break.
The King James Bible is the only translation that has the word Hell in it I think 55× the KJV is the inspired, pure, preserved, infalliable word of God. ❤️
Who deserves to be in hell forever suffering? Satan! But will he?
Ezekiel 28:18 (KJV) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Interesting conversation! Thanks!📖✝️🙏🏻❤️
Hell is This Earth you live in 🤷👹 Devil's pet's Luke 10:18
Hell was made for the devil and his demon followers and all those who deny Christ.
When God proclaimed His identity was LOVE, that set in place a paradigm or a filter, through which all of His actions are framed. For all the extent of His sovereignty, none of His conclusions for any life can be outside of being an act of love. Is eternal torment an act of love for the lost? Clearly not. Is denial of immortality, or extermination of the lost, an act of love? Clearly not. Would a good Father always make a way to reconcile ALL people to Himself, that none should perish, be an act of love? Assuredly YES! We can discern scripture in many different ways, but no matter what that is, it must conclude in being a reflection of God's identity…. LOVE. That means even His wrath, anger, hatred, and justice are all under the paradigm of love. Amen.