I don’t hate the F-35. I am not even a converted hater!
#F35
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At issue is efficiency vs risk.
The US can produce a 5th generation aircraft more cheaply than anyone else (much less deal with the R&D costs) and ther is massive savings in economies of scale. Of course, there is the potential danger of a design weakness or flaw that may render the entire fleet vulnerable. Personally, I think the risk is extremely small.
If you are a small (or even midsize) european country, would you want the best available or a less capable aircraft that you can produce? Ten years ago, when the weakness of Russia was not known, riding on the coattails of the US military-industrial complex seemed like an easy decision. With the threat less imminent, Europe may be able to afford a less capable (but far, far from obsolete), but indigenous, aircraft.
I think i disagree with the "everyone having f35 is bad for warfare" because there isnt really a viable alternative to the f35. Dollars saved by getting f35 over rafales or eurofighters can be spent on other kit, or more of the pkanes. Not to mention its uniqueness in capabilities
The thing is, Western Europe WILL fight as part of a coalition and the skeleton WILL be American. This is just the geopolitical reality of our age. The American Empire has a sort of second generation vassal state system. Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, etc. aren’t vassal states in the traditional sense, but they do take the US lead and their national security is intertwined with that of the US.
So from that perspective, the inter connectivity makes sense. Swedish and UK jets can fly and fight together along with US jets and integrate seamlessly. Which is how they will fight anyway. So why waste billions of dollars developing a new aircraft that will likely be inferior performance wise AND won’t have the same inter connectivity?
Now, having different platforms for an anti-fragile sort of framework makes some sense, but not in light of the opportunity cost. For the money of developing a new jet you can have dozens of airframes.
Besides, the US seems like it’s moving more towards faster turnaround times between generations of jets with the NGAD, which should create a more diverse fleet.
I have never thought you hated the F-35.
I have however often (and still generally) think you underestimate the synergy of features it has. In a game-theory sense, it's min-maxed to exploit game breaking mechanics (if I can sort of merge two different implied meanings of the term 'game'). So I've long commented that you kinda miss the synergy of it's most key systems. It's not a plane you can appreciate as a tree. You have to carefully examine the bark and conceptually extrapolate the implications, to really appreciate it.
But then I'm in a minority. I say the F-35 is the most significant change in the balance of global air power since the jet engine. And it's outrageous W:L ratios in exercises seem "as expected" to me. I know there can be a tendency to fluff numbers in any industry, but the numbers fit with the synergy of systems it has.
But I've never thought you hate the F-35. Maybe sometimes succumb to the Fighter Mafia logic here & there, but you're amazingly well learned and rational. And you've presented a couple of rationales over the years for why a country might not want the F-35. Well, in particular, the "EULA". Something I had not really considered, living in the US. I can very readily see why a nation might pass on the 'best plane', if it comes tied to the political winds of US policy makers. If I were the head of procurement for a 3rd party nation, I could very readily see that as a deal breaker. Also, I really liked how you explained the idea of a 'mixed force', so that an opposing force can't fix all of their problems with a single fix. That is a factor I had considered, and one of the reasons I was very much in favor of the F-15EX purchase here domestically. Particularly looked at through a 'volatile shipping cost' metric 😉
Anyway, whenever I have disagreed with some of your thoughts or conclusions. I hope that it has never seemed combative. Generally I only want to see what your responses are to raised counterpoints, because I don't automatically assume that I'm right. And on the occasions where you've had the time to reply to me directly, I have always found it very enlightening and interesting. You know more about the nuts & bolts of aerospace engineering than most top floor execs at aerospace corporations.
Anyway, don't let commenters get you down 🙂
I like a lot of the youtube channels in this genre (curious droid, dark skies/tech/docs, sandbox, CW Lemoine, etc). But one channel is head & shoulders the others. This one.
I mean, this makes sense. US wants allied nations to use their planes to make them rely on US tech and bloat their military spending so they stay economically weak. Plus, US gets to keep an eye on allied nations on everything they do. Let's be honest here, the sensors on the F-35 is like Tesla's EV. They collect data and relay back to US. US military has free reign on collecting data without even lifting a finger.
I wonder what role F35 will play once NGAD is in the mix. USAF currently describes it as a "family" of systems which I'm assuming means more than one aircraft. They sound like polar opposite philosophies, F35 which can "do it all" and NGAD as an assortment of specialized capabilities. Maybe as G7 countries pursue their own 6th gen programs, the F35 will be like the glue keeping the western alliance together.
Finally a voice of reason! Kudos for speaking up!
One more thing that I find disappointing, is how the F35 is treating the sales of a so-called allied country, chiefly the SAAB JAS39 Gripen E… terrible what the US policy has been doing to that fine machine.
Excellent point about the forced integration with US doctrine.
However, a lot of F35 program members have there own or are part of non-US next gen fighters (Tempest, FCAS, FX) development.
I can’t see F35s having much in the way of life extension in later years (well, maybe the RAF will but that’s another matter).
Perhaps the US is forcing allies to bend to their air power doctrine, but I don’t think anyone is forcing allies to purchase F35s, nor forcing those who do to accept doctrine after the purchase like a surprise charge on a car purchase from a dealer. I’m positive that the purchasers are committing with both eyes wide open or they would not be doing their job for their nation. Rafale purchases have gone up, so not everyone buys into the F-35 and accompanied doctrine. I see the F-35 as a sort of stealth F-16, and so it will get better in the future with new coatings and engines. Eventually, like the F-16, they will be everywhere, and logical criticism will only improve the aircraft.
Exactly!!!!
Your opinions are just that… your opinions.
You are absolutely right.
I don’t hate the F35, it’s just a shit plane.
I dunno about standards not being good for warfighting. And dont think having a standard means you cant have variety.
i like the newer tailess fighters, and seem the future for fighter planes as they become more and more like ufos
When the US Allies are flying the F-35, the US will unveil the 6th generation fighter. All the other nations will be feeding information to the US through the various data links. This also pins everyone into a situation where they become the eyes and ears of the US by flying first wave reconnaissance missions putting their aircraft at risk. Then the US can come in and hammer the targets. Sounds like a sound strategy. Make everyone pay to fly and maintain your reconnaissance missions because the US has the parts to keep their airframes in the air. The Black Hand would be proud.
The f-35 is being mass produced so heavily because it makes sense logistically, strategic air tactics and the resilience of an air force does not work in the same way as nature, these are two very different things. Logistics win wars, this is the single greatest truth about fighting war, it's why Russia is failing to take Ukraine as we speak as it's logistical planning has been an astounding failure. Having multiple platforms that can do different things is fine and even advantageous when done with a limit of four multi-role aircraft, but when you have an aircraft that is relatively cheap to produce, has greater commonality amoung it's variants than the aircraft it's replacing, and can do essentially all of those rolls on parity or better than it's predecessors, which the f-35 does, you save a lot of money, time, and complexity in Maintenance, manufacturing, and a common supply of supporting resources. Having to maintain, fly, and fight with say five different kinds of aircraft all doing a specific separate role is not only expensive, but time consuming. This is especially negative when instead of maintaining five different airframes, when you could bring that number down to two or three advanced platforms that can perform multiple different roles which can occasionally coincide with one another. The US has indeed been the backbone of Europe, and European defensive and offensive military might, this may or may not change for a while, but saying that they are exclusively supplementary forces to the US seems to forget why they buy American in the first place: it's usually cheaper than it's competitors, usually more advanced, and almost always design better logistically
As a Turk, I am glad that F-35 did not enter service. Even though the "so called" reason is ridiculous and not based on law or international order (sovereignty as you mentioned), the out come is fine.
Türkiye is out of this circus at least for another decade.
Sir – you just nailed it!
very well stated
It's excellent in it's main job, making some people rich… but as a warcraft, it have too much conceptual shortcomings to ever turn out good
europe is being harvested by the american military-industrial complex
just look at UK; they used to have a pioneering aviation industry and leading-edge military complex. The americans have been chiselling at it bit by bit over the years — to the point that they have nothing anymore. They can't even build their own fighters. They have to buy/borrow from the americans. The same thing will happen to all the NATO members.
Meaning: the plane F35 works OK if u EU, UK work with US so US equipment will work OK for u…
However if u should side step take your own decisions…
Plane u bought, Your plane F35 will No longer work OK…
See what's happening in EU, beening submissive & obedience bring EU joy and UK stability & wealth well being… NO
In times of struggle as in time of war…
One will only look after the self ie
Everyone for themselves…
Your shared portion will & shall be taken for the good & benefit of the one in control.
F35 is exactly the tool to control other allies as well. Thus one will find they are out of luck, out of control…
And those time is coming!
Chook Schedule:
World recession
~2024 war against a lone China, extreme naval battles
2026 Asia Regional war
World wide war by end of this decade 2030
(Nation against neighbours & own allies)
NATO break up
West 5 infighting
World depression
Society mayhem in US and UK
Society unrest in rest of the world
I believe that Turkey got itself kicked out of the F35 program for the reasons you mentioned in the video. It was a well planned move i think.
Variety is the spice of life. But other NATO countries aren't willing to invest in 20 year development programs like they may have in the past. I hope our NATO partners make something equally badass at some point.
The RAF has introduced the F35 into operational service, but ETPS (RAF test pilot unit) has NEVER approved it for use in an operational environment. The RAF test pilots who have regularly and frequently assessed the F35B are still (after many years) of the opinion that the control software is dangerous and unsafe. Unfortunately the UK government came under intense pressure to move forward, and instead of telling Lockheed to fix the plane, they buckled under the pressure when the US government threatened to withdraw the purchase subsidies. It may be very good at some of the things it does, but it is incredibly expensive to buy and maintain, and its' operational availability is far below what the manufacturers promised.
No, F 35 is not what you think. F 35 is a force that make different divisions work seamlessly together. So just do not mess with NATO. Invasion of Ukraine from 2014 to today is a violation of international law and not seen as Russia's territory as rest Russia has claimed is Russian. This war will Russia loose, in fact already lost, price is all Russian troops out of Ukraine one way or another, feet first or moving peacefully out and they will stay out!
Big question why do planes fly with a nose up attitude, wouldn't it be more aerodynamic if pointed 0 degrees in line with direction especially when in cruise speed???????????
The interconnectivity is another issue solved, Switzerland and Israel have a cyber center that collects the data and let the country decides what it should share and what it shouldn't
Good points.
Kindly can you do a comparison of K36 D ejection seat with Martin Baker
I actually think these are positive things. It allows the US and Europe to become a single military bloc that would make countries like China and Russia completely ineffective in its combined strength. It also basically ensures that other countries would not stray too far from US foreign policy as it would effectively be in the best interest of their own security. It ensures US military dominance for the foreseeable future.
Some of what we're seeing here is the "digitalization" of military R&D, production, deployment, information collection and processing, logistics, and planning. In many ways, I dislike it. Analog is smooth, it's quick, and it's durable. But the precision and magnitude of digital, when leveraged properly, is simply incomparable. It is a very costly process to adopt, rife with failures, oversight, and rework. But when honed to the degree that we are now approaching, it becomes absolutely critical. In it's heyday, the Soviet Union was the undisputed king of analog. What we are witnessing now in Ukraine is a testament to both it's durability, and the fact that durability just isn't enough when faced with well-honed digitalized platforms, information processing, and tactics informed by "Big Data". The movement, asset deployment, and targeting by the Ukrainians (under the close guidance of the US, lets be honest) is really something to behold, and has left Russia reeling. The Ukrainians have basically achieved "air superiority" from the ground. This is unprecedented. It's also why the F-35 is the only logical choice for many Western allies. The age of the drone, MLRS, cruise missile, and MANPAD "Air Force" is upon us, and the F-35 is the only airframe that can operate against, or coordinate with, these assets in volume. The US has emerged as the undisputed king of digital, and digital reigns supreme. But the world, especially China, is hot on it's heels, or certainly wants to be. That's the truth.
The f35 set the pace and forces you to react, it has already achieve its objectives.
I think when they killed the best airplane first it was the F-14 then stopping the F-22. The Raptor is the best one period. The size of a golf ball vs the size of a soft ball. I personally would want the least radar visibility with the most missiles and the guns. Raptor is the king