Mover and Gonky review the preliminary NTSB report on the Hop-A-Jet crash at Naples, FL plus Mover reads a message from a viewer that was involved in the rescue efforts on that day. https://www.flyingmag.com/ntsb-releases-preliminary-report-on-florida-jet-accident/
Join the channel to watch LIVE every Monday at 8PM ET or to see full episodes of The Mover and Gonky Show. You can also join in on LIVE Q&As with the Mover Mailbag: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEodFwnfPXdkzVPJZmuzAIg/joinEvery Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
Send your voice message for the show: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/cw-lemoine/message
Looking for a good book? https://www.cwlemoine.com
*The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.*
*Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.*
source
I'm pretty sure they are going to find the pilot accidentally shut the engine down. There is a way for that to happen if the pilots were reaching across each other.
Back in 2019 there were two separate incidents involving Cessna Citations where DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) was somehow introduced into the fuel load. I think the refueling truck had been used to pump DEF, but had not been flushed thoroughly prior to the jet fuel load, but I am not sure of the exact causality. But in that case, the DEF caused a crystallization of the fuel, contaminating filters and nozzles. Is DEF colored yellow?
Even though there seem to be oil pressure indications prior to the crash, I would doubt the oil systems of both engines are tied directly tied together in such a way as to create a single point of failure. Would a fuel contamination, resulting in a fuel starvation, wind up giving a low oil pressure indication as the engines spool down?
Just an FYI…. I flew Rescue and MEDEVAC in the Army, and HEMS in civilian life, and it was great a county element was nearby and could self-launch to the scene. Unfortunately, most Helicopter EMS (HEMS) are prohibited from volunteering and self-launching to a scene of any kind. I’m not sure if it has to do with liability, but most services require a request from an agency, and are limited to transport only.
you slip into theese incedents and sometimes you realize afterward, "this time we really were the difference this time".
Our company operates Challengers and the pilots with experience in the type are leaning towards inadvertently shutting down the engines.
So I talked with a 604 pilot and he said they usually fire up the APU going through 10k which this crew should have as they were planning on a pretty rapid turn around (quick turn) and reposition back to their home base at Ft. Lauderdale after dropping off these pax – might have been able to get one started? I don’t think they had the time
I havent flown the Challenger but I've flown its working class cousin, the CRJ.
It would be incredibly difficult to accidentally shut down both engines so I just dont know about that… maybe with some kind of misrigging slamming the levers to the stops might cause it?
Nightmare fuel.
Did they recover the CVR, i know they recovered the FDR?
Went to a aerobatic show crash years back with the fire department crash was back into the woods pilot died they say he blacked out during a stunt. Either way something that will stick with ya your whole life seeing it. Wonder how big the scene got and chain of command in that situation.
As a Collier County resident, it's reassuring to learn we have such competent professionals doing excellent work here. And, kudos too to the cabin attendant.
Challenger 600 series aircraft does have fuel/oil heat exchangers to keep the fuel warm, so no prist is required….
Juan Browne says getting an oil pressure light is one of the first indications you’ll get in this airplane during an shutdown situation
CRJ 100/200 have main fuel line going back to both engines and APU have pass corrosion issues leading to major leaks.
Discoloration of the fuel due to heat? Just a thought.
the only way this could have gone better is if shadow 5 just happened to have a full bambi bucket but you cant have everything , 90 seconds for medics on site and the flight attendant having the forethought of knowing about the baggage compartment , wow
I want to say I think they hit storm drain inlet i’m gonna look the next time. I’m on my way to Miami. and I’ve been wondering how the helicopter got there so quick
The Hop A Jet flight crew did a hell of a job not killing anyone on the ground. They put it on the freeway and did not hit any of those densely packed houses. That flight crew knew they were going to die but they did not kill anyone on the ground. That is the decision that every pilot has to make when he’s flying his airplane I will not eject I will not jump. I will fly my airplane to the crash and not kill anyone on the ground, that is my goal.
Engine oil pressure is the first indicator of an engine shut down on that model aircraft and engine configuration.
This is not the first time this model aircraft has had a dual engine shutdown on approach. There is an AD out on it.
No auto relight on that jet either. Once they shut down, your setting it down at that altitude.
The FO had just retired from a perfect 121 career. RIP Ian.
8:10 … Yes, that would be an indication of a shutdown. Those lights normally come on when shutting the engines down normally on this type. There is a video circulating around social media of a crew demonstrating how the arm of the PM reaching behind the throttles could get hooked on the red tabs to allow them to go into the cutoff position. Having some experience with this type, this scenario makes the most sense to me and is something that should be looked at (of course I could be completely wrong here), but we'll of course have to wait to see what the NTSB says.
Imagining that if there was inadvertent shut down due to thrust levers being brought to idle cut off, there would be a matter of seconds at least before the crew even realized what happened. The “startle factor” and disbelief at the engines quitting would possibly eat up any time that could be used to restarting the engines. They were pretty low, but a better time analysis might give more insight.
I flew challengers for a few years. In my professional opinion I believe it was an inadvertent shutdown.
Oil pressure wasn’t the cause of the Eng shutdown. The Eng shutdown/failure was the cause of the oil pressure lights and CAS messages
I’ve had to shutdown an engine on the G550 due to low oil pressure. The Eng didn’t fail it was a precautionary shutdown. Oil-P went to 0, ran the checklist and declared an Emer and did a simple single Eng landing. Turned out the oil pump shaft sheared. Which wouldn’t cause the motor to fail initially until it just burns itself up and seizes.
Of course pure speculation on my part just an opinion.
The right wing hit the acoustic wall and caused it to spin.
Here’s a distinctly viable scenario: The right seater is PF and is head out of cockpit looking to turn final. The left seater is PM and as the PF calls for the next flap change, looks down and reaches under the right seater’s throttle arm. As his hand reaches the flap handle for perhaps the twelve thousandth time in his career he looks up to go head out also. As he pulls the handle up and out of the gate, the PF retards the throttles just as the PM’s forearm is still in the way. The PM feels a contact, moves his arm, but it is too late as the switches have been moved up. The PF feels resistance and wants to further reduce thrust, so he pulls the throttles rearward but inadvertently goes past idle into idle cut-off. The engines start spooling down and airspeed decays, so the PF moves the throttles forward to no effect, then back to near flight idle as they commit to a landing attempt.
The cutoff switches will not engage unless the thrust levers are at idle. Tried this yesterday on the ground. Also, oil pressure warning is the first EICAS indication to appear.
It’s very difficult to imagine both engines quitting, and it NOT being a fuel issue.
OSU airport is right across the street from my apartment. I watched that plane take off.
A yellowing or darkening in jet a is usually a slight oxidation either the fuel itself or tank and lines it is in.
Old news. I read about this several days ago.
It hit a truck and an SUV. These people were all interviewed. It happened at 3:15 PM. That is not rush hour.
I haven't flown in a long time due to medical reasons, that's when I started following accident investigations. If the PM did indeed inadvertently shut down both engines it would not be the first time. I'd have to do a lot of digging to find it, but it's happened before. Also it's happened, caught and corrected. That one led to a good night in the underwear dept at Walmart!! The "Stu" that got those passengers out the baggage door should get recognized for that! She saved those lives!! JMHO –gary
Can’t see it being gelled fuel for the fact that those engines not only have a liquid to liquid cooler/ fuel heater/oil cooler, but also a fuel heater which gets bleed air for warming. Not only that airplane uses post FCU fuel for motive flow, means warmed fuel is used to go back into the wings for jet pumps to move fuel towards the inboard sumps then to the center tank. Hated seeing this, those guys saved lives at the expense of theirs. As a maintenance guy, challengers are very reliable aircraft but can bite you in the ass. One more point to ponder, Jet fuel at MSY comes in two varieties, Shell which is yellow, and macro which comes out clean and clear. We had a fuel truck and ran over a million gallons thru it over 12 years and the yellow fuel stands out because we had to test it as it was coming off the truck. Doesn’t mean it any better or worked than the other just yellow. Prist by itself is clear but mixed with fuel turns a yellowish tint. Microbial growth looks like black dirt until you rub it between your fingers then turns a little yellow-ish. Maybe depending on where you get fuel. Biobore is also a little yellow, used for microbe treatment.
Check out Juan Brown’s Blancorelio (sp?) he did a great vid on this mishap.
The chopper crew proved that training and preparation are important, but the very nature of accidents means that when you arrive on scene flexible thinking is paramount.
Mishap? Is that what you call it when 2 pilots die in a crash?
Reminds me of the Kathmandu crash where the check-pilot accidentally feathered to props, because he didn't look, and he is usually in the Left seat. His muscle-memory got it wrong. Didn't notice the feathered props until too late, all died! The check-pilot thought he had moved the flaps. NOPE!☠
I researched NET-JETS, never seen anything bad, I'd fly NET-JETS, if I needed a charter.
The nose gear came down on a vehicle. I understand from a person on the freeway behind the jet as it came down and actual dash cam video a
supports that.
There’s some speculation that the throttle levers were moved beyond the idle stop into shutdown. Normally this requires lifting a latch to get them past the idle stop. And the low oil pressure would be the first CAS indication of an engine shutdown in landing config. Configured for landing the APU would be lit supplying electrical …and I think the bleed air but I’m not certain in that model. Getting even one relit in the time they had would have been iffy, assuming it was even possible. Be interesting to see what shape the throttles were in (ie worn stop, malfunctioning latch, otherwise malfunctioning …)
I don't know peak hour there but where I live peak hour is slooow traffic so this may have been a life saver. Vehicles travelling at speed take longer to to stop and would have resulted in a lot of rear end collisions with gawkers watching the aircraft instead of the road in front of them.
I experienced something similar once when a vehicle was parked on the side if the freeway in peak hour and traffic was moving at less than 20kph (13mph) and the driver immediately just kept rubbernecking the crashed vehicle. 75 metres (82 yards / 240 feet) passed the vehicle the clown was still rubbernecking the crash site while a 200 metre (220 yard / 660 feet) gap had opened up in front of him due to vehicles accelerating back to the higher normal peak hour speed. As a commercial pilot on the ground I still Aviate, navigate and communicate. I did not take my eyes off the road space in front or the other sides of me. If I want to goggle crashed vehicles I can Google them in the safety of my armchair at home.
Commiseration to the pilot's families and kudos to the Flight Attendant. What a consummate professional they are. As the two host of this Channel can attest to training saves lives. I hope she is recognised by the aviation profession for her actions during this event. 👍👍