This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee discusses why the open world in Elden Ring is such a success — and why so many others still are not.
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good video. I noticed when I play open world games with too many UI elements and maps I actually understand the layout of the maps (or Zones) less. Elden Ring forces you to use your memory so you actually know where you are based on the scenery. Which is why they spent all the money and time crafting it to begin with. I think this is one of the things vanilla wow did well. They told you about the quest in the quest log but it was still up to you to actually find the thing you were supposed to do.
Fromsoft has always had absolutely massive nuts about hiding its content. The souls games are famous for having entire biomes and bosses hidden behind some easy to miss hole in the back of a cave that you have no other reason to go in
I guess I'm weird, I've always kind of differentiated something that I would call a sandbox versus an open world
That's not to say that the two are mutually exclusive either, you can definitely have an open world game that also tends to have sandbox elements
Sandbox to me seems to indicate that something is going to have a degree of experimentation in the gameplay. It's a sandbox after all, you should be able to play in it how you see fit. I generally find a lot of games that have the best sandboxes are actually smaller games. Maybe they have a few open levels that you can mess around in, are made in ways where we playability is a key factor. Stuff like metal gear solid 5, the new Hitman trilogy even Halo infinite I would call a sandbox and not really an open world. Halo has a big map to explore, but it's not some living breathing world I'm being told I should immerse myself in. It's really mostly a large map to kind of explore and then mess around in while getting into combat encounters. The tools at your disposal there encourage experimentation.
When I think of open world games, I think of things like The Witcher 3, or the aforementioned Ubisoft games, especially Assassin's Creed, or my personal favorite Red Dead Redemption 2
But I wouldn't call all of those games sandboxes, they have big wide worlds to explore, filled with some kind of side activity to keep you occupied, but I feel like they're created just to give you a sense of game space and to provide a believable world that the story is taking place in. Even in a game as well crafted as The Witcher 3, you're really still just kind of going from quest to quest, and exploring anything in between just maybe gets you an item, or some new monster to fight. There's not all that much to actually experiment with, as much as there's just a lot of stuff to experience.
Games that mesh both the open world and sandbox structure together are more unique. I haven't played elden ring yet, but breath of the wild is a great example. That's a game where there is indeed a world to explore, quests to find and complete, different cities and towns to interact with, but it is also a world where you are given a lot of tools to experiment with, the physics system in that game especially encourages you to mess around and find different ways to do things. It's a game that begs you to try something that you think might work, because odds are it actually will. I'll stick right then two in that list as well because that world is functioning on its own with a lot of intricately complex systems between animals behaving the way they do out in the ecosystem, and NPCs in towns going about their daily lives and interacting with each other. Everything in that game's World exists on a system made for them to already have their own interactions with each other to make that world actually have a sense of life to it. The sandbox element comes in with how you decide to disrupt those interactions and see how the game world, and the animals and peoples in it then react to your input. Other open world games like The Witcher or Assassin's Creed don't really give you that option, animals are just kind of randomly running around certain zones and they're only there so that you can utilize them for crafting upgrades, NPCs litter the towns to make them look lived in, but these people don't have their own lives and routines that they go about, they're just kind of preset to either be walking around, or to be doing something that looks appropriate for that area of the world but never actually really moving around or doing anything else. They exist for you to see them as kind of background prop to make the area that you're in believable. But they have little actual interactivity.
Bethesda open World games kind of have that sandbox element too I suppose, cuz there's a lot that you can mess around with. They just tend to also have a pretty basic formula to how you're interacting with anything
Anyway I'm going to stop myself before this becomes the world's longest YouTube comment. I'm not saying my definitions are necessarily correct, just a little bit of a idea about how I've always kind of differentiated what a sandbox is
The madman actually used the meme cart effect sound
Very salient point about not hand-holding or shoving constant markers in the player's face. I'm playing H:FW right now and while it's a blast, the icon saturation and all the pointers can be very distracting. To its credit, I have a TERRIBLE sense of direction and often stumble around open maps to an embarrassing degree and so the markers are welcome. But it'll be interesting to see a different approach once I get into Elden Ring and see if it's enjoyable or if I just spend most my time looking around dumbfounded like that Jon Travolta/Pulp Fiction meme.
5:35 Funny that being the better sandbox these days means doing what Morrowind did 20 years ago.
Golf course comparison was excellent
Cannot agree more. Eden Ring's open world reminds me of Fallout New Vegas, where I have been playing that game for over a decade and, even after I think I have dug up every secret and quest outcome, I keep discovering new things with each playthrough. I keep getting surprised. It is fantastic and I appreciate the confidence the developer showcased, recgonizing that players will miss things and that is okay because they WILL be back.
Even though Shenmue is pointed out as a shit game and like yeah, I love the game but it did sort of hype up that it was an open world and it kinda was but also just about as open as any neighborhood like, you can't just walk into other people's houses and stuff but it did also have that idea of not caring if the player misses something like Yahtzee mentioned. Like, there's duck racing in Shenmue 2. The meme is forklift driving and racing in Shenmue 1 but 2 has totally missable duck races that do nothing for the plot or any progression. It's just… there. Like 1's capsule toys and cassette tapes and plugging in the console in Ryu's house to play.. I think Virtua Fighter? Just.. there. If you find it, cool. If not, whatever, someone else will.
Yahtzee I think I like you more when you speak at a normal pace. Your jokes have time to sink in.
Did Yahtzee just coin the golf course game design concept?
Its also worth mentioning that the difficulty from Souls-likes compliments the openworld exploration. In a lot of games, doing too many of the side activities leaves you too OP for the main quest – robbing it of all challenge. If the point of an openworld game is to have good exploration then it stands to reason that a certain level of that exploration be "mandatory" for being prepared for the main path. Grinding up levels, getting enough crafting materials, unlocking new combat arts or whatever it is, having those be the tools needed to finally get through the main path.
Damn, I've been missing out on these Extra Punctuations <3
I doubt Yahtz read the comments… But the reason I gain a lot of satisfaction from Sandboxes is that I want an opportunity to LIVE in the world I'm exploring. Exploration is a massive driver for my motivation in gaming, finding secrets, learning lore. I love MMOs for that reason too. But Jimminycockthroats don't do that for me because I'M not exploring, my character is being lead by the leach. And I hope that games like Breath of the Wild and Elden Ring teach the AAA Industry to chill the fuck out. Because I'm NOT Convinced that Open Worlds are Dead, they are just victims of Abusive Corporate Executives. Remove sandboxes from environments that breed Domestic Violence and I'm sure the Open World will shine once again.
"Golf Course" game huh. Coining new terms again I see.
Like how Elden Ring gets a pass with big empty open world with almost nothing to do but kill things but any other open world would get railed for it.
So the Jiminy Cockthroat is a Ghost Train Ride pretending to be an open world?
Comparing Ubisoft sandbox games to golf courses is one of the best analogies I've heard in a long time. It's perfectly on point.
For the love of god, play Sable Yahtzee
I'm really enjoying these brief but poignant deep-dive supplements to the fun but more performative Zero Punctuation. Keep up the great work!
I guess I'm so used to the handholding that Elden Ring is bumming me out. I keep not wanting to explore too much because I feel like I'm missing quests. "Why did that random mob have a name and give me his whole armor set? Was he part of a quest-line I just botched?" Non-stop anxiety, but I love it.
Yes, this game's sandbox is amazing compared to some cookie cutter piece of shovelware from ubisoft or whatever. But it purports to be an RPG. And its story and world building are woefully underdeveloped compared to its peers. In ways which can't simply be dismissed with arguments about the developer having a different style.
How does anyone muster enough suspension of disbelief to see this as an immersive open world when there are so few people in it who demonstrate any sanity and sentience?
For all I know all the ostensibly human enemies are just some mindless zombie army. They certainly look and act the part. Otherwise why don't they ever talk? Where are their letters and books and bulletin boards and families? Why aren't there any mess halls and taverns and farms and homes and shops populated by sane individuals going about their lives? What are these great big lords even ruling over – themselves and the half dozen remaining sentient beings scattered across their entire domain? What is there even left for us to fight over? How does anything function?
Scaling up their (admittedly masterful) DS level design to a whole large map does not an immersive open world make. I'm not saying it needed to have an abundance of all of the above. But some further effort in adapting their formula to an open world was clearly warranted.
Unless things change drastically in the areas I have yet to explore, there are literally only a few handfuls of people who do anything other than sit/lie down/stand/patrol/ignore you/attack on sight in the entire world. And even those few exceptions do so much less than other RPGs. Remember how CP2077 was slammed because of how lifeless its world felt, largely due to the behaviors of the NPCs in it? How is this game not orders of magnitude worse in that regard?
It's a shame that they put so much effort into creating such an interesting setting but only bothered implementing the most barebones, lifeless version of it. This game could've had the best story and world building in an RPG in a long time. And it wouldn't have even taken more than a tasteful few extra touches well within their overall style.
I can't be the only one that misses hub-based game design along the lines of Metroidvania or Psychonauts. I like having a "base" area to go back to, and then different "zones" that all have different challenges and feels to them. The problem with sandbox gameplay is that it all starts to feel the same after a while.
That's why I always loved Souls. Grabbed it six months post launch for 20 bucks and was running into lordran that night.
No tutorial holding my hand.
No direction.
Just "shits fucked please help. Or not cause guys WAY more cool than you tried and failed. Scrub"
Elden Ring's such a large game, Yatzee requires extra punctuation
The whole Souls series has the confidence to be systems-driven with most of the story just being fragments most people won't see if they aren't told it first
Elden Ring is the first open world game where you forget 100% about the main story the second you get to a new area. There is so much environmental storytelling that every area seems to have a story within the story that leads to something even more mesmerizing than the actual story. It is hard to really explain, but it is literally the "do whatever you want" fantasy with an endgame if you want to do it.
"Or Minecraft in more recent times…"
Careful, Yahtzee, your grey hairs are showing
the wall texture joke hit me too close to home
I was totally on board until you shat on Shen Mue again. It's an open world game where you are a teenager who is too polite to break any rules or go anywhere special, in a video game with no power-ups when it constantly gives you things that should be power-ups but instead do nothing. You can talk to everyone, but most of them have nothing to say, knock on every door and have the occupants either not be home or tell you to go away. You are a martial arts master who isn't allowed to use martial arts the majority of the time. It's just like real life, it sucks and isn't fun most of the time, and that was it's charm.
Elden Ring is a particularly good luring sandbox on its own merits because it's pretty easy to stumble upon whole swaths of optional, totally unique, and tailored gameplay. You can miss whole legacy dungeons and crazy one-of-a-kind bosses, and the means to get hinted toward them are often themselves missable. There are rabbit holes waiting patiently for you to find them one day, and they don't care if you do or not. Somehow, you're going to find out, and you're going to pursue it of your own volition. No extra adventure lines, no menu entry, just the knowledge that it's out there. It's an anxious notion the first time around, but after that? It's just really neat to think about. Don't feel bad about asking friends or google if something exists or how to reach it, because judging from their ever-maintained Messages system in-game, they want that.
a good sandbox plays hard to get with its secrets. A bad one barely has any secrets.
Oh my God Yahtzee has done it again! A golf course is EXACTLY what most of these 'sandbox' game are like nowadays, and hadn't thought about it till he brought it up.
In an earlier video you were talking about how elden ring is not a genre-defining game, well I have a counterpoint, the revolution that elden ring represents (to the mainstream at least) has little to do with the mechanics themselves, which have all been done before, though arguably not as successfully. but with the philosophy the mechanics are implemented. if… when somebody tries to copy elden ring, they will probably copy the major mechanics and world design, but not understand why they were implemented in that way, then fall back into the ubisoft sandbox trap.
I agree with yahtz that it arguably made the game better for a first experience. I feel like in replays it might be less engaging since you've explored everything and it will again feel like a chore list but god damn if my second character didn't find even MORE stuff while doing his check list. So yeah it's a really good open world that allows you to miss a lot, even if you're looking