Welcome to Dean of Doom, the show where we give grades to classic and contemporary Doom wads. Why? Because ranking things is fun. Today’s episode will be dedicated to Back to Saturn X Episode 2: Tower in the Fountain of Sparks, a megawad released in 2014, and tinkered with on and off for the better part of eight years. It is the second part of a planned trilogy, which remains unfinished as of today. Man, I can’t believe it’s been almost two years since I covered the first BTSX…time flies. Anyway, Tower in the Fountain of Sparks is the follow-up to the widely acclaimed vanilla-compatible magnum opus that kicked off Doom mapping’s greatest decade. BTSX 2 added Josh Sealy, Xaser Acheron, Matt Tropiano, Eric “The Green Herring” Baker, and Adam “Khorus” Woodmansey to the lineup of designers, and rolls out an impressive new crop of textures which give life and personality to ancient cities and natural vistas alike. That’s right, techbase fatigue is yesterday’s news. There’s a brand new mixtape of Guided By Voices titles for those of you who haven’t sold your souls to the Doom Classic Unity port, and another incredible MIDI soundtrack to take in, so let’s get this party started.
Link to the megawad:
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/btsx_e2
Special thanks to @DCG Retrowave for providing the MIDIs! (Channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4xHzJ94Fji7psz45rF_Bhw)
Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/mtpain27
source
oh thank goodness, tryna beat combat shock 2 before you release the video on it. got 2 maps to go. It'll be the first time I beat a pwad before watching it here. XD
Been looking forward to this one!
I'll have to question a couple of the difficulty ratings though, namely Bite and Unstable Journey. Pretty sure Bite was called the second hardest map in BTSX2, after Fireking at least, and it definitely gave me more issues than any other map. Same with Unstable Journey really, there's a couple of really gnarly fights that put it above the other two big epics (Theory and Bee Kingdom) in terms of difficulty. I'd personally swap the ratings, having Bite and Unstable Journey at A-, with the other two mentioned at B/B+, as they're not really all that tough, just fucking long haha. Other than that, bang on as per usual.
Also, SO glad that I'm not alone in thinking that Fireking is as hard as it is. Seeing that X- made me feel a lot better about the fact I'm having a hard time doing a single segment of it haha.
This is right up my alley. I’m a sucker for huge exploration-vanias. I love absolute sprawl-fests like Hexen.
Oh yes!!!! BTSX 2 is one of my favourite WADs. It’s challenging, epic, visually appealing, and has great soundtracks especially Map 14 and 18! I totally agree with the grade on Map 14 because it’s one of those levels where you’re in such a disadvantage but look carefully enough and you’ll be rewarded, even though the Cyberdemon fight is still a bit of a gamble lol. Great job and thank you for reviewing this WAD!
BTSX E2 is one of the only wads I regretted downloading; I really wanted to like it but instead I got bored with it. Despite not being a techbase freak and loving natural landscapes with ancient structures, E1 imho is still much more fun to play.
The suffering from magnum-opus syndrome that E2 has simply isn't for me.
I hope the criticism points at E2 are taking into consideration for E3 as I'm sure it can be the best of the three wads, taking the strengths of E1 and E2 without all the weaknesses.
BTSXE2 was a pretty enjoyable set for me. Most maps were a lot of fun and I never quite got lost in most of them. I'll be sharing my thoughts on a few of these levels here if you don't mind (oh and I was playing with coop monsters enabled) 🙂
To lay down the gauntlet, I do not see the appeal of Map01. Maybe I'm being too harsh on a map01 but barring the cool looking sights of the lighthouse, I didn't find anything too memorable or engaging about Map01. It just kinda passes by for me, I prefer E1's opening level and honestly, one of my least memorable maps (contrary to its placement on the T100MM list :P).
I completely disagree with you on the hub maps, they're enchanting and the architecture+texture usage stand out as well. Coupled with the excellent MIDI, Mystproj, these hub levels are much more "beautiful" than their partners in E1 imo.
We have nearly the same experience with Map14 and for my money, I'd like to thank a commentator on decino's video "Dinner-fork tongue" for a comment they left talking about the red and blue keys that, for some reason, stayed in the back of my mind all the way until I got to Map14. I absolutely love this map, I wish mappers did this more.
Map15 is a fun map but I think this map would've been better if it was toned down. There's a charm to the ruins and temple aesthetic of the map and I think the design of "broken circles" in the central region was a pretty cool way of tieing it to the title. However, on coop, again it might be bad play on my play, but I found myself low on ammo and health which just got on my nerves. The secret hunt for map31 is enjoyable and I ended up looking fondly back on Map15 rather than being exhausted.
Map31 was a great map from start to end I don't think it becomes redundant at any bit. I think that its difficulty peaks at the start (which can also be dismantled with clever usage of the invulnerability) but it stays comfortably in a high risk but satisfying challenge valley to the end which I liked a whole lot.
I found Map19 to be a lot of fun to play through, more than its immediate predecessors. But I looked up the number of radsuits on coop and they've been doubled so I can't quite judge your experience. Anyways on my side, I love the bluntness of Map19 which is especially highlighted by the six extra cyberdemons dropped often infront of your face. There's a certain harshness in this map which, doesn't feel unfair due to the abundance of ammo. I'm not so friendly on hiding almost HALF of your map as a secret but that area itself is fine. I also think the shade given to the map author felt unwarranted, I don't think it came out of any sort of pretentiousness as opposed to a difference in style.
I agree on Map20, it feels like a bunch of maps stuck together into one package. Visually it's stunning, the nonlinearity is impressive and considering it's literally hitting vanilla doom's limits, I can't help but be amazed at it. But all things considered, I never found this map all that interesting in the combat department nor the exploratory aspect. I think it could've benefitted from being more directly connected rather than forcing detours and backtracking. Although, maybe I fucked up routing. Either way, I respect this map but I find it hard to disagree. Oh and on coop, there are 7 extra boss monsters, including 3 asshole cyberdemons at the large beach and 4 asshole masterminds in the big underground temple room. I wouldn't complain about that though, I reap what I sow 😛
On a related tangent, I wouldn't say the sets suffer from any sort of mapper ego either considering how many of these maps have a roughly similar "pattern" and to me, the magnum opi syndrome feels more like a byproduct of adhering to btsx's "consistency of quality" as opposed to any sort of ego drive. I think people would appreciate if the maps were more difficult or challenging I think, most people don't complain a whole lot about Map31's length for example but either way, the comment towards the end felt pretty harsh.
Map22 kicked my ass for whatever reason and Map24 on coop is unironically a pain in the ass but I found both really exciting to finally pull off. I'm so happy that Map25 got the love it deserves. Of all the sprawls in btsx e2, this is nearly perfect. Each key area feels distinct in its own way, the combat is sharp despite the length of the level and that midi selection is just stunning, on its own it's not that catchy but it just pairs very well with its level.
Gotta agree on Map26 as well, I don't get it. It's a strange and claustrophobic outing honestly, nothing in the map rivals in the big cave fight in tough skin river. I liked the MIDI selection though, it had a certain apocalyptic flavor to it which doesn't fully match with the level itself unfortunately.
Finally, while not as "beautiful" as E1's ending map per say, Map27 coupled with unsettling MIDI selection was quite memorable. Walking infront of the huge expanse of nothing as "Cruel" played was enchanting and haunting. Hard disagree Professor.
To wrap up this comment, I think on both E1 and E2, I'm a lot of more favorable on a bunch of these maps than you are. But either way, disagreeing is part of the fun after all :). My favorite maps would probably be Map14, Map31 and Map25 while I agree on the weakest map. Hardest with coop monsters was definitely Map24. Anyways, another good episode Professor!
I don't think dew will ever release a bugfix update which lets you finish the remaining maps with 100% kills. Speedrunners community skipped this wad.
With Level 14 I wonder if it leans too much into the "Mandatory Secret" territory because as you mentioned your entire view on it changed one you knew about the secrets which a player who goes in blind to it will have a miserable time just like how you mentioned it was originally your it might be one of your least favorite levels of the BTSX duology
Suggestion for the reading of supporter names at the end of the video: don't always go from A to Z.
Most people, I assume, won't watch until the very end, and even if they do, it's human nature to pay a lot more attention to the beginning of a long list than the later parts. Switching it up and starting at a different point within the alphabeth would give all your supporters the spotlight they deserve, whether their name starts with an A or not. Something like going from B to A in one video, then C to B in the next, etc
I've never been a huge fan of midis but nearly every track this WAD has given me frisson. Fantastic work here.
odd coincidence: the last time I thumb-upped one of your videos I took it from 420 to 421. The same thing just happened…
Even though it has it's faults, BTSX ep 2 is still a wad worth playing. I freaking love the artstyle and design of the BTSX wads. It's very colorful and alien-esque.
The more i watch your videos, the more i appreciate the writing on them, especially you ability to use many different synonyms and figures of speech when describing situations. I wonder if you would have tips on how to improve such a skill, could be material for another podcast or one-off video
Map 31 scares me… Map 20 just looks like a hexen level in its complexity.
I had a feeling you'd rate this one lower than the first episode, because decino decried his displeasure of its magnum opus syndrome in his playthrough of it. However, I do agree that the soundtrack is superb once again, though my personal favourite tracks on it are Mystproj, Ominus, and Cruel.
Imo I think e2 is far better than e1
More memorable maps, incredible ambientation, the progresive change on the sky box, the hub map with all his secrets (you might want to explore e2 hub maps, they have a lot of details like being able to see map 26 from there), the music and the complexity of some of the maps
The thing is that btsx e2 is enjoyable if you don't go to get 100% kills
This was a thing on btsx e1 too, there are maps that are not made with 100% kills in mind
I always though that placing a button near the exit that kills all of the windows monsters would be the best solution
now THIS is what we've all been waiting for.
Some levels were familiar watching this video which subverts my memory of this megawad, like BTSX Ep 1, being a big amorphous blob of monotonous Doom design with no differentiating features, however by the end I remembered getting frustrated with this wad and by the last leg of BTSX Ep2 I was tuned out and just wanted the thing to end.
I don’t wonder why this megawad is popular though– I can see why this is someone’s gig and even if I think it has legitimate flaws, still think it’s impressive.
You should use the arch vile death sound whenever a bad pun is made and you should use the imp/revenant/gunner pain sound whenever a monster window is mentioned from now on lol.
I have tried on three separate occasions to get into BTSX E1 and it just never grabbed me even after I think eight maps; almost nothing about them were doing it for me. I look at E2 and just see more of the same with a different albeit more interesting coat of paint. Maybe I'll try it whenever E3 releases… Well, IF it releases.
Both BTSX1&2 are both wads that I absolutely love but have trouble recommending due to both wads having obvious issues. But hey at least both wads are on the unity port which is pretty awesome. When I visit my brother for christmas I think we're going to play tough skin river on co-op
I actually liked the hub levels a lot, but there are 2 problems with them: 1 – I have no idea what I am doing, is this plot or just dressing? 2 – it doesn't make sense where it brings you, you enter a facility / tech base, and you end up in completely different places every map; the maps are not grouped by themes, it seems they had multiple themes and just mixed them to make the wad less boring and to play with the difficulty scaling (I don't think they manage to do this one perfectly either…)
The maps are beautiful to see but ugh… so antagonistic vs the player. Yes they are more enjoyable the second time, but that's not how I want to play my wads…
My suggestion to really enjoy this is to enjoy the scenarios, skip 100% kills and secrets, play at any difficulty you feel comfortable even if lower, and as soon as you can take the exit take it. Otherwise this will be remembered as a not too enjoyable, nice looking wad to which you will never return to
Also regarding map20 not playing well in Zdoom is because afaik ZokumBSP didn't exist when Zdoom ceased development. When ZokumBSP was used as nodebuilder, it caused similar issues for other Boom ports (when not using vanilla complevel) and GZDoom as well. But support for Zokum was added quickly in those.
Conclusion: I would recommend to switch to either DSDA-Doom or GZDoom (or any other up-to-date port) and won't recommend to keep sticking with a dead port.
mappers: put their blood, sweat and tears into creating the biggest, most ambitious and most complex maps you'll ever play
mtpain: too long, didn't play, D-
I liked BTSXe2 a lot. The music, the texturing, the fights, the atmosphere. The difficulty level felt just right (except for map 31:)). I also like secret hunting in BTSX a lot, because you always get clues, and secrets never feel too obscure or random. But boy, some maps felt exhaustingly long, especially if you try to beat them in one go.
Can you grade the wad "the revenger" please
Really interesting, I absolutely adore this wad. Like I love every map! I felt like I climbed Everest when I beat "Fireking says no cheating", I never got sick of that map!
But I definitely see where you're coming from and love hearing your takes 😄
Hey MtPain, do you plan to ever review the megawad Tarnsman's Projectile Hell? I thought it was the most impressive project in the year it was released, and I say that while having played Heartland.
As for the "dunce cap" map 20 "Speedtraps…", it makes more sense with co-op monsters. It felt underpopulated on UV, and to me it was very anxious and tiring, because I constantly anticipated evil traps of all sorts. But this feeling never got properly resolved. Having Sunder-like proportions, it would truly benefit from an appropriate level of action, I think.
It’s probably worth noting, there’s a slightly more up to date version of 26 that adds some more monsters and replaces the invuln for the end fight with a mega-armour, I imagine that doesn’t change the grade but just for your information since you made note of the invuln
The actual video quality on this is amazing!
Well if nothing else, this video certainly generated a lot of discussion! At least we can all agree the MIDI soundtrack is absolutely godlike, right?
I was certainly surprised by the technical issues you ran into in Map 20. I played BTSX E2 in GZDoom, probably version 4.6 or 4.7 at the time (with some small mods on top as well) and had no issues. Really makes me wonder what version of ZDoom you use specifically when you say that's what you use.
As for my 2 cents on this megawad, I still like it overall but yes, some maps do still drag & all the beautiful texture work, amazing MIDIs, mostly satisfying fights & stupefying vanilla mapping wizardry are not always gonna make up for that on the player's side of things. But there's enough great stuff in here that I am still excited to see how episode 3 turns out.
Kind of an interesting review. I've played some maps of this wad and really enjoyed them, but I guess all the beautiful maps get lost between more beautiful maps. I guess one can need a couple of maps for contrast for the great ones to really sink in and feel striking.
BTSX ia a masterpiece of WADs. The levels that are "transitions" are so original and has an unique vibe. Waiting anxiously for the EP3. PS.: I prefer the feeling of the empty train stations from the first EP too 😅
Well, here's to you tackling Epic 2, whenever that'll come out.
BTSX so far looked rather intriguing…though just not quite my cup of java.
BTSX Ep1 & 2 were the first PWADs I tried playing after finishing Final Doom. Maybe it's just a case of never forgetting your first, but I do have a great fondness for the both of them. I personally prefer episode 2, if for no other reason that the theme of exploring ancient ruins gets big neuron activation points from me. I can't blame anyone for not liking its 3-hour-long gargantuan giga-maps, but I do. I prefer them over the shorter, combat-focused ones, which probably says a lot about me as a Doom player.
I also wanted to say that your experience on Map14 pretty much mirrored my own. I, too, stumbled through the first play-through getting absolutely trashed and finding basically no secrets, thinking that I had just gone through one tough-ass map. Next time, I managed to find both the hidden keys, nearly by accident, and was blown away by how much of a difference they made. Definitely a gimmick well-executed.
Oh yeah, and 'bang for your buck' is legitimately a good pun in this context; Don't even apologize for that.
No Heretic mentions… the dream is truly over.
The long intro could easily be posted in the video description instead, especially if it’s the same for every video.
Always found Tarnsman's work unenjoyable and unwieldy – his forgettable texturework, boring map layouts, largely uneventful encounters, and obnoxious yet unrewarding use of damaging floors tend to coalesce into underwhelming final products. On the other hand, Mechadon is absolute king when it comes to magnum opus design. Definitely play Counterattack when you have the chance!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
22:53 Note use of the word "mobs". When was this first used out there…? I thought that was a specifically Minecraftian term but I'm open to correction.
Most of these music tracks are actually better (in my opinion) with some kind of Gravis Ultrasound patch or addon or soundfont thingy. (I literally just copy-pasted this comment from the other BTSX video you made, thought I should probably say the same for this WAD as well as its still true.. I mean.. true in my opinion)
Oh man this wad…shew this one is hard ..I played through it twice and it was difficult each time lol..that secret map shew man…glad you did this one ..been waiting since you done the first one
I could never make it past map 3, not due to difficultly but because of how btsxed out I was from the first wad, the color palate of the whole set reminds me of the 18 hours I spent on the first one, and I don't need that times, watching this makes me kinda glad I skipped this one, it's an empty masterpiece, it's good, but what is good, but the way maps bleed into each other makes the whole project feel lacking in the truly great maps found in wads in it's weight class.
Been waiting for this one. I discovered BTSX through this show and really wanted to know what you thought of Ep2.
I agree with most of what you say here. Some brilliant pathing through these maps for sure, but it peaks too soon and halfway through I was pining for the conclusion which never really came. It kinda just ended.
BTSX1 had the obvious issue of too many samey maps, but I'd take 10 techbases over what is yet another outdoor natural map with confusing layout and too little landmarks.
Here's hoping Ep3 will find the perfect balance between the two.
bts 1 and 2 were the first two megawads i played since getting my new laptop last month and getting back into doom. they were both great but i liked the first episode quite a bit more.
Another great video of Dean of doom Mt. pain.
I will say that after watching this i decided to go back and replay both BTSX 1 and 2 and……still can't finish them. To me i think there too big and a lot of back tracking kinda ruins the mood for me.
But i love watching these videos while working on my own maps to kill the boredom and time. Keep it up and maybe one day one of my maps will end up on here as either a sawed off or a community project ep.
I can see it now "Scavenger wolf's map grade B difficulty C-" Sorry i wanted to make that joke, please don't flunk me lol.
20:00 , lol my favourite part in this video.
I think I made it as far as Dirty Water but I didn't know where to go so I dropped that Add-on. That seems to be the issue for me with Add-ons I don't finished.