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What's really great is that as a machine cavill has been built.with an irredeemable flaw he can never purged
When posting this, I am still paused early in the episode right after Adama asked Tyrol to be "Chief" again. I paused to point out what a great moment this is. You can see that Adama is still somewhat pained and conflicted about accepting Cylons. But at the same time, you can see logical, consistent growth bringing him to the point where he is now finally recognizing that these Cylons really are "people," and that ones like Tigh and Tyrol really are the same people he grew to trust and befriend for many years. The arc is really beautiful, and is both superbly written and superbly acted, especially when you take into account that it is an almost 4-season arc that has been written and acted over that entire period.
Starbuck being the child of a cylon is a brilliant theory that I never actually considered.
I believe Cavil would be an r/Atheism user.
I have a wild theory about the thing. but I can`t say anything yet as we need to get to the end of this show!
Cavil programmed an Oedipus scenario and then went through with it.
One major correction regarding Starbuck (not a spoiler): She is not the "harbinger of death AND DESTRUCTION." She is the "harbinger of death." I'm not sure where you guys got and added the "and destruction," but that is not what was said about her. And it is an important difference that is not just semantics.
I love the speculation about what that means and what she is. I will resist the temptation to say anything else on that front other than: yes, it will be addressed eventually.
Awesome episode, and awesome discussion.
When Ellen downloaded, she got her "old" memories back
Leoben: When I look at you, I see an angel, burning with the light of God
The Five arrive in the Colonies and end the first Cylon War 40 years prior to the miniseries. From roughly 40 to 30 years prior the Five create the 8 humanoid models and introduce resurrection technology. At some time during this decade and after the 7 surviving models are functioning, Cavil (more properly, John) traps the Five and kills them, boxing their personalities. Shortly after, he resurrects Tigh and Ellen with 'human' memories and releases them into Colonial society. Roughly ten years after the war ended, Adama meets Tigh and they become close friends. [It is unclear of Tigh and Ellen were resurrected together as a married couple – since the flashbacks early in season 2 implied Ellen was part of the reason Tigh was depressed enough to unalive himself before Adama brought him (back?) into the fleet – but they may have met and married purely by coincidence.] It can be assumed that Tyrol was next to be released roughly 20 years prior to the miniseries as he had served aboard three battlestars and was nearing retirement at 20 years when the miniseries occurred. Finally Tory and Anders would have been released roughly 10 years ahead of the miniseries. Anders was famous enough in Pyramid, but still relatively early in his career and Tory… well, who knows what exactly she was doing in the Colonies and just happened to be in the right place at the right time within the fleet to replace Billy when he was killed.
I find it amazing that – even when clearly stated otherwise – Joe is STILL convinced at this point that Kara Thrace is a Cylon. Fortunately it is all clarified by the end of the series.
The Real-Life explanation for the Cylon numbering issue is the showrunners did not have a master plan when they started the series. It was written in the Miniseries that there are 12 Cylon Models and started right off with Number 6 and Number 8. (We would later find out the others introduced in the miniseries were Numbers 2 and 5.) I'm sure they hoped to reveal a new hidden Cylon every four or five episodes each season but the serialized story they started down the path on did not allow for such often and periodic reveals.
Once the show was in Season 3, the producers made the decision the show would have one last 4th season and wrap up. This is when they really started laying clues as to who the Final Five might be in the second half of Season 3 – deciding they would not be numbered models because they were special for some reason – but as Season 4 began they realized they had made a mistake by calling the Shannon models Number 8. The reveal of a lost Number 7 called Daniel in this episode was their attempt to explain away the numbering discrepancy in a way that made it clear to the audience that all the humanoid Cylon models had been revealed. Starbuck was definitely not a Cylon, so the mystery for the audience was trying to figure out exactly what Starbuck actually was?
For being what is essentially an information dump episode, I find "No Exit" to be absolutely enthralling.
Apart from the exposition, you have Ellen's waking up and freaking out, then calming down as her memories are reintegrated. Plus Tyrol and Adama coming to grips with the physical state of the Galactica.
And as the centerpiece, Cavil's amazing speech about wanting to be a machine. Dean Stockwell knocked it out of the park.
At this point, this aint a spoiler, STARBUCK IS NOT A CYLON. Quit beating that dead horse.
Guys, if you ever watch an interview with the writers, youll find that they made a mistake when they refered to Boomer as an 8. It was a miss count that didn't get noticed until it was too late. Thats why they came up with no. 7, the Daniels. There were only supposed to be 12 Cylons.
🔔 TRC @ 16:44 ➡ THERE'S A GOOD WAY TO SET YOUR EXPECTATIONS ABOUT BSG GIVING REVELATIONS:
🔔 EXPECT NOTHING AND YOU'LL NEVER BE DISAPPOINTED, IF ANYTHING ONLY PLEASANTLY SURPRISED!
why insist kara is a cylon when entities like head six and head gaius exist? clearly, beings other than humans and cylons exist in this show
Any return to Kobol exacts a price in blood. < or something like that >
mikey 👀
Going back to Kobol would presumably involve going back through the radiation field which killed Kat in the episode passage. No? Is that a wise plan?
And there it is! The 5 gave the 12 colonies' cylons the resurrection technology. They can't just remake the ship because they have no idea how. So once it got destroyed that was it unless the 5 built it again.
Kara isn't a cylon. It feels like it's no longer a spoiler to set this straight at this point. We don't know she's a cylon, contrary to what Joe said, because we know she's not. There isn't an answer for everything. But, the show would not keep dicking around with a mystery cylon reveal with 4 episodes left.
Interesting little note, Boomer is the only other cylon to know the identity of Ellen as one of the final five. Presumably, even before D'Anna sees them on the algae planet and would have kept this information from the other cylons. Even her own model.
"Hello, I'm a Mac."
"And I'm a neurosurgeon with a terrible bedside manner."
It is absolutely hilarious how certain Joe is that Starbuck is a cylon. Like 5 episodes before the end of the show
Just one word of advice: Don't expect answers to everything.
The Daniel story was just a way for the writers to "fix" the numbering for the Cylon models. Otherwise, one of the Final Five would have to be number 7, and that made no sense. However, it sparked my own theories about Daniel… just as it did to you guys.
Apparently, Joe's decided he's God. 🤣
Regarding religion, don't confuse the existence of a creator with how people define them.
At this point, Michael Trucco had just survived a major car crash and was severely injured. He recently said on the Katee Sackhoff podcast that these scenes of him in the last few episodes where really difficult for him.
Did you know the actress playing Ishay is Lee’s real life wife?
What a great episode, and so much explanation in this one.
This episode really fires on all cylinders on every level.
Love Dean Stockwell and Kate Vernon in this one. Really enjoyed the discussion.
Anders' gunshot wound is due to a serious real-life car accident involving actor Michael Trucco, in which he broke his neck. The vehicle flipped on an embankment, landing upside-down. Trucco was badly injured in the collision, fracturing four of his vertebrae. The writers incorporated his injury into the show.
Another BANGER discussion.
I have a teeny tiny gripe with you though Mikey, you made me super sad in this discussion. Galactica is a 'she' not an 'it', that you aren't granting her character status hurts me.
Joe, love the lengths you're going to in making your theory about Kara work. But. Occam's razor suggests you've had to invent an awful lot of story not given. Just sayin'.
Mike, I've never been happier to see someone's theory be proven right. I was delighted for you 😁 and can finally say how goddam impressed I was when you first suggested that the Five created the other skin-jobs.
I CANNOT WAIT to see your reactions to the last few episodes. 😘
oh man its gettin close
These theories are WILD!
Thanks to Mikey, Joe and Mike! 🦾🆚💪
This is the episode that made Cavil not just a great villain but one of the best villains of all time. With humans the question of human limitations is a bit moot, whether you believe in a creator or not. Either we evolved through natural processes and our capabilities and limitations are the natural results of that or we were created and that creator isn't around to ask questions or complain to. But Cavil knows he was created and one of his creators is sitting in front him talking to him. He could have been designed with the capability to observe and explore the entire universe for the rest of time, but his creator chose to limit him to human capabilities and saddle him with a mind susceptible to mental illness and emotional turmoil. I can't imagine the frustration. He feels he could easily have been better than what he is. Cavil is certainly evil machine but his basic frustration and motivation is very human and very compelling.
Ellen and Boomer, jetted out of there in real time. Ellen respawned 4 months ago, but time has passed. The resurrection ship was destroyed. They are in current time.
My head canon is that a divinely reincarnated Daniel is Starbuck's dad. Him being an artist fits with the little bit we already know and some of what we learn about her dad, but I think he was right actually reincarnated before the final 5 were placed into the colonies, possibly even before Cavil actually savatoged all of the Daniel copies. The timelines not lining up is the big flaw in the theory but I think it's a good possibility otherwise which is why I have the one god intervening and sending his reincarnated essence backwards in time to be the right age to father Starbuck.
Ya know, I never thought about the "needing love to reproduce" thing very much, but now that you guys were walking about it, I can imagine how they could actually engineer that. They could have made the female models so they only ovulate when they're regularly producing oxytocin, or something. The males, maybe it's something similar with gonadal function. It's interesting, never really thought about it until now…
Guys you gotta let this FTL thing go ( although it seems like by the end you did) . 🙂 The jumpdrives are those moving parts you've seen in the episode when the Chief sabotaged it. It's at the very bottom on the ship covered by a thick layer of armor. Ships ( even sailing ships ) are built by laying the keel and the frames of the ship which serves as a skeleton for everything that comes after. It's like the foundation and the beams in a building. When he was down there he noticed that the frames have those cracks, it has nothing to do with the FTL. I would imagine he knew how to disable the FTL drives without permanently crippling the ship and thus the fleet.
The new mainline Battlestar the fleet was using ( Valkyrie class ) that you could see the Bulldog episode and in the miniseries is a much smaller ( a little larger than 1/3 of Galactica ) vessel with the fraction of the capability of the Mercury class ( Pegasus ) or even that of the Galactica. Must less armoring, less fighters, less weapons but very mobile. She has barely any armouring on her belly and you could actually see the jumpdrives exposed unlike other Battlestars with a lot of armor there. It makes sense, the fleet was saving money, they have not seen real combat for over 4 decades so there were no need for those giant ships. They needed smaller more agile vessels to maintain security and do some general policing and anti-pirate operations.
You should watch Blood and Chrome ( a standalone movie like Razor ) which is about an operation during the First Cylon War and has Adama and the Galactica in it ( in her prime full of weapons ), that movie has a really cool scene with a Battlestar's FTL drive.
BTW now that it has been revealed that Cavill knew who the final five was this whole time. Now go back to his first scene where he talks to the Chief after he almost killed Cally and he was telling him "well maybe becasue you're a Cylon". 🙂 These revelations adds SO MUCH more context to earlier scenes, the re-watch value of this show is really high. Dean Stockwell was amazing through the show as Brother Cavill.
I love how the show tells you something and you refuse to believe it. We knew Ellen was a cylon already
Daniel began as a retcon to rationalize the disparity between the numerical order, and the actual number of cylon versions.
But the retcon took a life of its own.
There are some amazing fan theories about the identity of Daniel, and the nature of Starbuck.
They could have made an entire spinoff series on these theories alone.
Harbinger:
person or thing that foretells an event soon to occur.
The harbinger announces the imminent event –is not necessarily the cause of the event.
To lead them to their end: maybe their death, but also: maybe their destiny, their goal.
So yes the Cavills have known the whole time who the final 5 were they are also essentially the main villains and master manipulators