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So…Some folks are pretty angry about this. Is it unreasonable to expect things to continue as they have for the past decade or more, or do we need to accept that companies are going to do this sort of stuff more?
00:00 an interesting topic of conversation
00:20 changing the game a bit?
00:29 should firmware updates and upgrades always be free?
1:18 the basic customer expectation for the last decade
1:47 Line 6 used to do paid model upgrades
2:00 the Helix/Kemper and Fractal all have been champions of this model of free updates
2:15 HX Stomp got all of the updates, and 2 extra blocks available
2:45 the paid upgrade has shaken the guitar community…
2:50 could this have been done better?
3:05 free updates are the BEST marketing that companies offer for their products
3:19 if you’re moving to a subscription/paid model – should the hardware be cheaper/free?
3:33 all along we thought we were paying for processing power and form factor?
3:55 the HX Effects SPECIFICALLY omits functionality
4:45 limitations due to DSP make sense?
5:00 isn’t this why the Kemper Player is cheaper?
5:30 is there a reality where a paid upgrade system leads to a better experience?
6:03 or would more companies launch devices that weren’t really complete?
6:27 free updates are not really free
7:10 would you ever pay for an upgrade/update?
7:30 Helix amp in the room preset
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source
Is it unreasonable to expect for upgrades and updates as part of the price of the hardware? Would you be happy to pay for updates going forward for your chosen piece of hardware?
The Helix is the first time Line 6 offered free updates. The previous models like the xt and hd had diffetent add on packs you had to purchase.
If you chose to buy the Kemper Player, you opted into living without the features that you now can buy with the new upgrade. If you so desire you can spend the money and extend the unit or you just leave it like it is.
I don't see why there is a problem at all.
Saying that the DSP has been there already does not change this. With that argument companies would have to give away all of their plugins for free, because we already have the hardware to run them on. We can't expect everything to be free. That's just ridiculous.
It’s about trust. People bought the cheaper player with the understanding that the limitations were hardware (less DSP) and then they find out Kemper deliberately hamstrung the product to get more money later. Just be up front about it.
There’s also this unspoken agreement that we buy half-finished products now believing the company will fix it later (quad cortex started this trend, and the Kemper player still can’t do dual button presses yet etc.) This falls apart if we aren’t sure the fix will be a paid upgrade.
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a subscription type service, provided that the hardware is sold at a loss similar to how most gaming consoles are. If the entry cost is low and there's significant value in the updates then I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing, but kempers implementation here is obscene.
They should look to the most successful company in history for the business model. The iPhone business model makes money by selling hardware. Apple’s software updates are free, but you can buy add-ons. That’s how it should be.
I am a software engineer by trade. Software costs money to make, and sometimes upgrades might be costlier than people may think, so paying for a software upgrade is not necessarily something unheard of. I think the problem is that getting hardware in the market to artificially limit it, and unlock its full capacity through a paid for upgrade is the "dodgy" part IMHO. It would be different to provide the full capabilities and suggest that more effects, models are to be paid for and different to suggest that in order to use the full capacity of the hardware that has been purchased already, you need to pay extra. If it was just software, it would have probably been acceptable. If it was restricted hardware sold at 70% of the more powerful/featureful one and they are both available at launch time and you choose the one you want, people would not necesarily complain, even if the outcome would be what is happening now. Pushing the upgrade as a tiered subscription though, so shortly after launch, seems like a calculated move, and definitely bad marketing
What about the people who bought the player and are happy with it the way it is at the lower price point? Who says the player will never receive future updates for free? Would those complaining have been happier if Kemper launched the player at 3 different price points based on the features? Seriously, this is a damned if you do, damed if you don't situation. If you don't like it, don't buy the upgrade or simply sell your Player and get those other products. I bought my toaster in 2012 and have received updates for the the profiler and the Rig Manager to this day. From my perspective, and as an owner of many other brands of modellers, I can say Kemper has been the best purchase in my buying history.
I have a recent Fractal FM3 (Turbo) and have had a constant series of improvements and features all at no extra cost. I really appreciate Fractal's culture of looking after its customer base and not just trying to extract money at every opportunity.
The same can be said for my Tonex pedal and even my Boss GX100 that has just had a recent update providing more features at no cost. I can definitely say I choose products that represent quality, bang for buck and constant improvement at no extra cost.
To each their own, but Kemper charging for its feature sets to be installed just makes me look to other products that dont do this constant money grab from its customers!
My amp modeler tribalism has made evil laugh so much this past week.
Neural/Kemper LMFAOmuhahaha
Making clients pay for updates is one thing. Another is the price point itself. Charging three digit amounts is completely unreasonable. I do still own tube amps which I planned to sell once. This won’t happen now. A real Plexi or 800 is fantastic over its entire life span, even if it lives forever. No upgrade needed here.
Agree that the way they did it was bad. If they did it at launch and you could choose based on what you want/need like the H9 series than I think it would have gone over better. They should spend more time trying to update their capture algorithms and release a new product. Fractal can get new revenue streams because the product cycle doesn’t last forever like the Kemper has.
Don't understand why not sell it for 1029 from jump amd market it as a full blown Kemper in a mini format
Ole Blue k line has returned, you must have cleaned her good!!!!
I feel like with the prices of them, they are already building in the cost of updates into the product. At least for a few years.
It should be free , the hardware support all these upgrade stuff at first they just “remove” it because of this awful marketing
If you try to sell your Kemper in 15 years, you'll get almost nothing for it. If you try to sell a Bludotone or a Two Rock in 15 years, you'll find it's appreciated in value.
I had to buy my computer. It came with some software and it'll do more stuff than I'll ever use. It has the capability to do even more, but I'll have to buy the software if I want that functionality. Why should it be any different with digital multi effects pedals?
Upgrades can't be free if they invole upgrading a $700 Player with $1,600 Stage feature set. It was never going to happen.
Goodbye Sir Kemper, grift master you are.
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that you have to buy the NDSP plug ins in order to use them on the quad cortex?
So I guess everyone would feel better about this if they initially released the Player with full capability and sold it for $1000??? I think it makes sense to have a lower initial costs and then pay for added functionality if/when I decide it's needed. At the end of the day the Player is a much smaller unit and has the same capabilities as the Stage (not including captures, which I could care less about)and at $700 or $1000, it's still quite a bit less than the Stage!! What's the problem here??
I already asked this qustion on the Kemper forum: if you buy a BOSS overdrive, why do you think they should give you chorus and delay for the same price?
It is a nightmare for kemper. It’s a major red flag
Good idea for an amps and cabs add on to the hx effects. Where do we lobby for that?
Its like games today, micro transactions and paid content. Not my style of business but i see where it is coming, it is all about milking customer and not doing great product. Im just happy i sold my kemper just in time few years ago. I wouldnt be surprised if some company would go full adobe, montlhy fee or you get a pricy brick on your hands.
Perhaps the issue is that people don't think software or music are worth anything. Partly because you can easily copy them and there's no tangible thing to hold. That's why you're on youtube trying to make a living and tickets to concerts are so high because no one would buy your music in the same way we bought albums in the past which we valued. Listen to Guthrie talking about how his family would treat a new album like a major event, taking out the vinyl disc and treating it almost with reverence before playing it. Now even people who will fart on all day about how much they love Govan don't actually buy anything to that end. And software is the same. It's not seen as having any value and any attempt by a developer to get a ROI or to fund development is seen as bad by users. Whereas a plastic or metal box with a few buttons can cost a lot of money and they'll happily pay for it – and the irony is, the box is worth less. Significantly less. People will vastly overpay for guitars and electronics hardware but baulk at paying the price of a cup of coffee for a piece of music or software.
And the truth is software is really complicated and expensive to create. The main reason you've gotten free updates is simply because it's difficult to create software that is feature complete and bug free not because they wanted to set some precedent for free updates. I see a few comments saying musicians are broke – well see the above – if people place the same value on your product that you do on software it's just what you deserve isn't it? If you want to go back to the days where average guitar playing got you a cocaine habit and to fly around the world on a private jet, well you'd have to start paying for music again in your millions.
And one deluded sole saying if you buy a car with a feature it's yours forever – I'm guessing not old enough to buy a car because if you buy a new car you'll lose 15-35% of your money in the first year and up to 50% by the third – like I say, people are complete idiots if you give them a metal box "ooh, $100k? I'll buy it!" but won't pay $5 for a few songs. Will pay £3 for a coffee and would perhaps waffle about the service and staff costs, but don't think the development team are worth anything. I mean you can make a cup of coffee so try writing a plugin for an effect. A bit more tricky eh? Now think "I placed more value on a teenager pressing the button on a Tassimo than the comp sci phd that developed this software"
Not defending Kemper and I agree this approach won’t help their reputation, but this appears to be a product enhancement so they may feel justified
Well, if updates cost money they can't expect that people will buy their products after launch. "Oh, a new Kemper hardware? I'll buy it in 2-3 years then". 🤔
As I see it, personally just bought an FM9 (costs 133% in EU of what US are paying), for that high price I EXPECT updates to be included. Thats what I take into consideration when buying it.
With the upgrades installed, you get an almost full-fledged Kemper for 2/3 of the price of a Kemper Stage… I think that's incredible value. I don't see the problem here…
These are all a scam, it’s an endless cycle of updates and upgrades and eventually new hardware; meanwhile all my analogue stuff works and sounds fantastic. Have fun
Saying "people just want free upgrades" confuses the issue. Charging for upgrades is not what's offensive about this. What's really happening here is that kemper sold a unit with x, y, and z capabilities and charged the price that would cover said capabilities plus a profit margin… but they intentionally and arbitrarily neutered the unit of the Y and Z capabilities so they could extort more money from the customer after the sale… They are not upgrading these units. You can't add memory to a computer with a download, they shipped it 625 Rigs! The unit had all these capabilities the day they sold it, and therefore the cost of these capabilities has already been born in the original sale price… we shouldn't even be calling these upgrades, we are playing into their narrative by calling these upgrades. You're not paying for upgrades you're just paying for the rest of what the unit already could do when you bought it… this is a stick up.
I commented on your other video that this shouldn't be illegal, but now that I've thought it through it definitely should be illegal to call these upgrades. This is fraud. The unit had these capabilities when they shipped it, and the only honest way for them to do what they are doing is to call it an "unlock" or a "jailbreak"… if they aren't being transparent how about the units were sold and shipped shipped already having with these capabilities and then arbitrarily locked via software to set up additional cash asks after the sale, then they're misleading people and there could be legal liability.
I have a PC and I bought the NDSP Nameless plugin. I don't understand why I don't get all the other Neural plugins as a free upgrade. I have all the hardware needed for running them. This feels like a scam.
The issue is not "should upgrades be free", but rather, " is it fraud to arbitrarily lock features that are already in your product in order to extract more money from paying customers after the sale?"
I can see both sides of the argument, but I would be pretty unhappy to buy the player and then realise that it seems to have limited functionality unless I pay out an additional 300 for the full version which I was unaware of unlike the manufacturer who knew all along at its release. I bought a Line 6 Helix LT new a few years ago and the updates have been fantastic and free and I have been so impressed by their product that last week I bought a used Helix floor, using the LT now for students in my teaching studio as well as a backup at gigs. Even though the Helix is a fair few years old now, Line 6 have kept it up to date with excellent updates and it is still a force to be reckoned with. This can only be a good thing as line 6 sell plenty of Helix's in different versions and the purchaser gets an excellent processor with pretty frequent updates.
considering fractal sounds better is easier to use and sends FREE updates all the time. seems a no brainer. I will keep my kemper cause I like the sound as well. but not buying anything new from them
If you release a product, especially a piece of professional audio equipment I think first and foremost what you're paying for you should get… With the Kemper player. People I suppose did get what they paid for. The biggest issue I think I have is the news that they released a product and intentionally software locked / limited the available DSP of the device knowing they could upsell 'addons' later on rather than releasing the best possible version of the product.
Especially when the price point is already on the higher end and with a preowned market almost rendering the kit redundant they're shooting themselves in the foot.
This is very much an Apple or EA Games move and I don't think people expect that from a brand as historically reliable and respected as Kemper. But I, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest others just don't like the Apple-fication of yet more products and services. People want to get what they pay for and best deal possible with the assumption that there will be meaningful updates and LTS. And pushback is the best way to voice dissatisfaction with this sort of pricing model, I don't think anyone wants to encourage other units to follow down this same path.
But to answer the question I think it's reasonable to receive long-term support for a professional piece of audio equipment for free and potentially for years to come. You're investing in a product and committing to an ecosystem and the brand needs to respect the trust given to them by musicians, whether hobbyist or professional. And trust is important. As a Kemper Stage owner and completely unaffected by this it's disappointing to hear they've taken this route and broken that trust.
Ngl it has kinda made me want to just get out of the ecosystem, especially having seen so much good stuff from Line 6 and Fractal on the channel.