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I still want a M+ redesgin, the Timer makes it so not Fun.
They should just ramp up the difficulty and add something like a Death Counter.
The Gear Problem can easily be Fixed by removing Loot entirely from M+ levels that rival Raids and add a Currency to buy Raid Gear.
just keep m+ gear and raid gear separated and it SOLVES every problem. kinda like benthic gear, the raid gear gets extra bonuses for the raid, and m+ gear gets bonuses to m+. That way theres no overlap and people wont complain
How about eventually having all of the mythicable dungeons availible all the time and you can pic what set you want to run.
So like, have a "Legion mythic" tab in the LFD and you have a Legion mythic dungeon score and everything. Could even have it with a ksm mount attached to each set of dungeons
Make raids more viable for people who actually know what they are doing instead of mindless number games and make the gear in them more rewarding all around and then get back to me on whether making mythic pluses even more difficult than they already are is still a good idea, even better why not just add more rewards beyond 15, something even more beneficial than just hoping to get the single max level gear that you need, like a guaranteed drop OR SOMETHING. Right now mythic +'s are one of the only best ways to get big gear for raiding in a faster manner than raids, not to mention dungeons like Mechagon and Karazhan give much more fun gear to play with than raids. Heck a lot of sepulchar trinkets don't even synergize with anything proper save for the base stat trinkets, its a wasted potential that something like Architect's Ingenuity Core doesn't synergize with anything, not even Magically Regulated Automa Core which could have definitely made that worthless trinket more interesting.
Instead of worrying about raiding not be "rewarding" enough if m+ drops decent gear, maybe just design raid progression to not be such a god awefull experience?
I mean, it's just a suggestion, but the raids might be a lot more fun if there were less bosses where you wipe endlessly because player #13 made a small mistake on the same mechanic you've wiped on 200 times before. It'd make raids significantly more fun, and has the bonus effect that you might actually clear the raid before completly outgearing it with M+ gear simply because you're no longer wasting weeks wiping on the same mechanic while waiting for everyone to finally learn to perfectly execute the stupid mechanic.
But no, of course that's not what Ion wants. He wants months of frustrating wipes, even on normal & heroic, for some reason. So m+ is going to become harder, cuz god forbid a game is simply fun, gotta earn those imaginary purple pants, can't just give those pants to some noobs who don't "deserve" it….
Back in legion when M+ first came out.. I had mained a DH for a while at the beginning of the expansion. I had my BiS ring from court of stars that gave you bonus melee damage. I didn't like running M+ over and over getting like 10 different ilvls of the ring to begin with before I settled on the one I had… but then as soon as the next patch dropped and everything scaled up.. I remember sitting there looking at the ring in the dungeon journal dropping from normal mythic at roughly the same ivl as the ring I had already went out of my way to farm and being like, "Well… that is fking stupid."
That sentiment has echoed throughout time the more I have seen of M+.
Side note – The players in my guild at that time who actually liked M+, and pushed for keystone master… also happened to be the same people who were regularly underperformed in raids. Not because the mechanics were harder, not because they didn't know how to play their class. It was because they were impatient and hard-headed. They already had better gear than most of the people in the raid group as we were progressing.. had an inflated sense of self worth because of that.. demanded drops because of that.. played poorly because of that. The kind of people who will stand in mechanics to finish off a DPS cooldown and completely rage on healers if they died because they are sooooo geared, and, "its just heroic difficulty.."
I wouldn't say raiding is "harder".. it is all just WoW mechanics at the end of the day… but it does take "better" players in general.
M+ should benefit M+ ONLY. It's that simple. The problem is that it makes raiding obsolete. It takes much less effort to get 5 people together to do the dance for the best gear. The weekly through the great vault can also be another problem because now as a raider, it's just another requirement. M+ should NEVER ever EVER give away gear that is higher IL quality than Heroic raiding because again, what's the point. World of warcraft was built on raiding and social interaction there in. When they created time trials in mop that ultimately ended up evolving into M+, their intentions of making dungeons relevant past max level was achieved however it created other dynamic issues as we see today. For some people M+ is their go to. It's what they have time for or what they prefer and they should receive an appropriate IL for their troubles to a reasonable point but the fact that you can out-gear past a heroic raider who has spent the better part of 3 months dedicating, learning, progressing with a large group of people, simply by grinding M+ over and over with 5 people is absolutely ridiculous to me. Raiding should be at the absolute top without having to venture into hardcore mythic raiding to keep up with M+.
BC launched with like 13+ dungeons didn’t it?
M+ should be part of a gate. But it’s not and this is why it sucks in this iteration. Mythic + should never reward like raids. This is why your player base is divided all up.
Why not instead of making m+ harder just make it so you have to do a +18 for the best gear
Thought I was the only one who didn't touch Tezavesh last season lol.
Visually blizzard only needs to make mog pieces for M+. Unless you're talking about gear with set bonuses like the old dungeon sets.
Well if they remove raiding then raiders won't have to complain about M+ anymore 😉 It's pretty clear which of the two is the more accessible and rewarding.
the future of dungeons is WoW, normal and heroic will be removed, then all dungeons will be converted into mythic+… not all at the same time mind you, a million dollar company doesnt have the resources for that. they will just do like 6 at a time then shelve them for the next 6.
If raiding re boss drops isnt as efficient or rewarding as m+, then couldnt they add in an entire pool of BoP trash epics that compliment boss drops until the relative rate of gear from raids reaches parity with comparable dungeon keys?
Turn dungeon to raid and raid to ultimate and there is no such thing as dungeon
I never needed anything from cathedral but did it nearly every week cause some poor sod got the key and last day before weekly reset the tool was flooded with them. It wasn't too bad if you group was awake but certainly a bit more stressful compared to most other dungeons. Never liked the Mephistroth, mostly cause I never understood why tanks got randomly oneshot? Still don't know if that was a bug, it never appeared in combat log, they just died
Why don't they stop being lazy and make more than eight dungeons
Unpopular opinion: I miss faceroll dungeons, with a couple boss mechanics… Get me in, get me out, give me gear.
As a person that does M+ more than any other content, since it is repeatable and I find them fun. I feel I need to speak up. For context I have all my M+ ports I was a hair short of 3k rating last season and just missed my conduits(rip). I am part of what I consider a heroic AotC guild. We dabble in mythic but it is just beyond the collective skill level of my guild, so we usually get about half way through give or take a couple bosses and then hit a wall.
It is true I outperform everyone else in the guild that does not run M+. Those of us that do M+ challenge ourselves there and then carry our guildmates who are also mostly friends and at minimum pleasant acquaintances through the raid. We get together 2 nights a week and raid for 2 maybe 3 hours each day, because that is the commitment we as a guild are willing to make. We join discord and shoot the shit, banter, and joke. Socialize and have a generally good time. Yes there are sprinkles of frustration when that one druid, hunter, mage, etc scuff the mechanic for the 8th time and you start praying for it to get put on you instead. That is forgotten though because we have all spent time socializing and getting to know each other so it is easier to laugh off and poke a little fun.
Me and the people that run M+ do the same thing only more often and in smaller group sizes. Occasionally dragging other guildmates through to help gear them if they want to, but we don't force them to do M+ if they don't want to. All but 3 of these people I met through playing WoW. I used guild chat, party chat, and yes discord to make these connections. I joined this guild in BFA after not playing WoW since early TBC.
So yes there are people that prioritize gearing over everything. They want to push as far as they can by any means necessary, and that is fine. They can live their life and do what they need to do. I on the other hand am not like that and am content focusing on what I enjoy, doing the best I can based off what I am willing to give, and not beating myself up over other things or what ifs.
Maybe it is because I am older and I view these thing from a different perspective, but I am sure there are more people out there like me that just want to have fun. You just have to find them, and put in at least some effort on your end to be social and get to know people. WoW is supposed to be a social game, being anti-social and expecting the game to do all of that for you is not going to work. I am not saying it is easy, I am just saying its not impossible and is probably easier than you think.
Sounds like delaying 4 additional M+ dungeons let's Dev team meet November release date.
I can't wait for people to screw up and spawn a bunch of adds on Rukhran.
there's nothing bad about a straight forward "hallway" experience as a dungeon – what it needs is momentum and a ticking clock to make it interesting. and I don't mean that EVERY dungeon should be streamlined into that from a developer perspective. PLAYERS will always design a route for repetitive content no matter how fun it is to do blindly. what players do wrong is that some expect EVERYONE to be up to speed after week 1 and want to run the route even tho the others are new to the dungeon and might want to figure out – let's go here to kill this boss and raise the drawbridge or whatever.
then again, the level of danger the mobs in a normal dungeon poses no threat and people can pull 4 rooms and aoe them down if the tank just holds aggro… so if that's the level of encounters, then maybe just make the streamlined corridor into the dungeon experience. idk I haven't played retail for 10 years except in WoD – teleporting to dungeons and leveling where the difficulty was keeping up the movement of the group
Wait, so is your issue that players have to learn and adapt to new challenges? Usually love your takes, and maybe I’m misunderstanding, but dungeons should be hard and unique imo.
The problem I have with M+ is that I was required to do it so I could raid.
I'd much rather raid and only raid.
why retune the difficulty scaling when you can retune the loot scaling?
My favorite Seat of the Triumvirate story:
I did a lot of low keys in Legion. Often a group would join you that was working on bad luck protection for legendaries and carry the keyholder. I learned a lot from those.
One day I had a +2 EOA. We 3 chested it and got a +5 MOS. They were like, "Let's do it!" So we went to Stormheim, ran it, 3 chested, and got a +8 MOS. Of course we 3 chested it. And I got a+11 Seat. They were like, "So sorry about your key." We were all laughing about that.
I don’t enjoy Matt’s commentary at all. Just had to say it.
How about just increasing the drops from raids instead of nerfing m+ loot??
The point about m+ difficulty being “on par” with raid is just goofy. A +22 is unattainable for 99% of the player base, and is only attained by m+ players because we already have the gear. We don’t do it for gear drops, we do it for rating. If Blizz does this they’ll just make m+ something nobody does (much like raiding) as the highest difficulty is unreasonable, and prog doesn’t feel worth it.
It doesn't matter if you're attentive as a DPS player once again people only want numbers, they don't care if you stun at the right times they don't care if you cast divine shield, or shield of vengeance on yourself to make sure that the healer doesn't have to worry about you during big mechanics. They never notice or care about the hand/blessing of sacrifice. All they notice are big numbers or GTFO!
I personally cannot wait to never touch a DPS class ever again. That's a damn shame because I played my paladin literally since the beginning of burning crusade when I first really started the game.
It's not fun anymore it's a pain it makes me feel depressed every time I log in and can't get a group and that's not why I play video games.
So screw it healer or tank or literally nothing else because that's the only way you get invites especially on live servers right now.
I hope they add new dungeons! Kings rest!
For the gear problem, they should just make gear specifically for each type of content, similar to how they had pvp gear. Make gear that is just as good as raid gear, but the extra strength of it is only active in dungeons. Same with raid.
Lots of people can carve time out of their life schedule to do a key with some friends, but that is a loooott harder with the way that raiding is designed time-wise. If you can’t dedicate hours of a couple days a week to raiding, you won’t get anywhere real with it, and that’s simply not possible for a lot of people.
Or they could design raids more like FFXIV designs end game raiding, but I don’t think they will ever do that.
Blizz should keep gearing how it is now. It’s the most fun it has been since legion. The whole end game is perfect.
Maybe have the max raid size 10 man. Basically the playerbase prefers smaller group content anyways.
They need to address raid friction and accessibility.
There's a reason M+ feels easier, it's because you can do it at any time you want with whatever friends are currently on, and you can play as much as you want in any given week. That's accessible content designed for the modern video game player base.
The funny thing is that if you stuck WoW M+ group finder into any other game, people would laugh at you. Blizzard needs to take a step back and reinvent the wheel. WoW used to be a good MMORPG because it was accessible, and it's definitely not that anymore. Compare it to FFXIV where BiS loot is designed to be puggable, AKA accessible.
M+ has it's place but it needs to be something that isn't killing the raid scene. Too many guilds I've seen or been with just have a group of players who start off raiding and within a few weeks are only concerned with M+ and stop giving a shit about the raid. They can run with 5 ppl at their own time frame and easier to group up vs a planned /scheduled raid night so I get it but why have raiding if M+ just replaces you with better gear than what you can get in raid.
Raids are bad, m+ needs more tank. They should have given us 4th talent spec instead of demonhunters 2.0. DF season 1 dungeon plan is a huge let down.
What is the experience level of these two, out of curiosity? I cant help but get this vibe that the Matt guy is the one in the friend group that pretends to know everything about everything but has completed heroic raids and a couple of +15's.
Or…I dunno…a token system to buy gear for m+ bad luck protection…oh wait….
Stop advocating to take gear away from other players, it is a feel bad moment. If raiding isnt as rewarding as M+ at this point the solution is not nerf m+ rewards, it is to buff raid rewards.
Affixes are lazy, id like to see mechanics to bosses and mobs not passive random effects after a mob dies… or random storms etc. TBH i always have said this tyrannical and fortified are dumb to go back and fourth each week.
Everyone is trying to figure out there mythic tree talents I don't play will not do mythic..I just want my regular normal heroic..what blizzard need to do is split mythic out to it's own game..ion even stated that mythic is not for everyone..you should not be expected or pushed into that content..
Lets get Mythic + Deadmines and WC lol
M+ ruined the game
Sorry, but Mythic+ as a system killed my love of dungeons in its entirety. I'm just not a fan of how they work as a system and everything they try to do to make it seem more enjoyable is just further and further from the mark for me. I have no problem with other people enjoying it of course, but for me personally….mythic+2 is like the most I can actually stomach just for the novelty of it, but beyond that I don't even engage.
Honestly I don't even blame Blizzard for it, not entirely. The dungeon running community and I just don't agree on anything XD I liked the old vanilla thing where not every dungeon was built equally at all, even down to the party size recommendations. Some dungeons allowed for up to 8 players while some seemed almost designed for only 4 but allowed for more. I really liked that. Not every dungeon should be the same cookie cutter design with the same requirements because god forbid one dungeon be built slightly differently and allow for faster keys or whatever. How dare a dungeon be interesting and quirky and…you know…fucking fun, because fun only works a few times, but mythic + you gotta do it a billion times and that turns that fun quirky dungeon into hell on earth. God I hate mythic+ and what it's done to dungeon design XD
if they devalue M+ gear because of Heroic raiding, I will be very unhappy. I do only M+ and like not being forced to raid. What stupid argument is it that people who don't do it hold their guild back ? If you're serious about Heroic or Mythic raiding you do your 15s. Remember what you had to do in Classic/TBC to be able to raid ? Do 8 15s isn't asked too much