Returning to The Lands Between after two years, I was reminded once again of all the things I loved and hated about Elden Ring – but after finishing this DLC, the overwhelming impression I’m left with is one of fatigue. FromSoft has been coasting on the Souls formula for over a decade now, and this expansion is the ultimate proof that it’s grown stale. This is the end of the road for Souls.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Intro
3:31 – Exploration & Open World
7:43 – Presentation & “Lore”
11:15 – Levelling & XP
15:44 – Bosses
29:46 – Conclusion
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I agree.
This game proved how superior a linear or semi-linear game is. The vast areas are simply loading screens for the next dungeon or point of interest.
This game proved how open worlds stretch games and make them tedious. Even if this is one of the best, still has to deal with useless content.
About the combat system…well…this is not fighting anymore, it’s more like hoping to beat my enemies as fast as possible before they do some one shoot f-ing move, same for the bosses. The better strategy is not to learn its moves, but to buff you so much that you can kill him in one hit (I saw a video, it can be done for Radhan too). It’s not funny to pass hours in your menu hoping to find the right combination of gadgets because From Software made it complicated on purpose.
Despite all of this I enjoyed the DLC but for Christ sake…
Up to this point I used to think that ER's boss design felt wrong mostly because of their unfair nature but replaying DS1 after about 7 years made me realise something; Souls games have always been unfair, the reason they are challenging is becuase they put you in seemingly impossible scenarios and expect you to overcome these unhinged odds. The process of beating a boss or an obstacle was never truly "fun" to me, succiding was. I'm currently stuck on Orstein and Smough and let me tell you it's actual torment. I'm using a greataxe that has insanely slow attacks, low range and long recovery animations and it makes the fight really tough for me. It immidiately reminded me of the suffering I went through while fighting Bayle or Consort Radahn.
Here's the difference tho: the duo bossfight is the first roadblock I've encountered in the entire game, every obstacle before them I overcame through caution and patience. It only makes sense that this is the first major spike in difficulty for me; I'm literally fighting 2 giant warriors by myself. Obviously it should be hard and when I eventually defeat them using my dogshit weapon I will feel like a god but the main point is that the bossfight is challenging just because I have to fight 2 dudes instead of one but it's sufficient enough because it's the only duo bossfight in the entire game and makes sense from the game's world perspective, it would make sense that fighting two guys at the same time would be an insane challange.
For contrary in SOTE literally every single boss is like that. Every single bossfight is some kind of a roadblock with some crazy shit that's suppoused to gradually increase the difficulty more and more but in consequence makes every other encounter less and less unique. The problem with that is the souls combat is perfect for dungeon crawling, for the slow and methodical approach where caution and high consequence of actions are the core of challange. That segways into another important point; the spectacle and high octane movesets of ER's bosses make the combat look fucking goofy. Look at aforementioned Radahn for example: he shoots giant rocks, shatters the ground and in his second phase he literally creates waves of light and explosions that would destroy a castle yet literally all our character has to do to avoid it is to roll. It just looks silly. Feels like the game's immersion suffers a lot because of the missmatch between the spectacle and the souls combat even with all of it's modifications. I'm not saying DS1 and DeS didn't have aoe attacks that could be dodged with roll but in ER and the dlc the dial is turned up to 11 going over and beyond reason.
I feel like we're often too focused on the mechanical aspects of the combat and don't look at the bigger picture of what it's design accomplishes in the grander picture.
I can actually see the vision behind these bosses and why they were made the way they are but it falls apart for me simply because that vision colides with the nature of Souls combat.
I agree with most of what was said except the part about weapon investment. You get to a point in the game where you can just buy infinite amount of upgrade material and spirit ash material too. After losing so much to radahn I ended up respecn to great shield and a bleed spear and won the 1st fight😂. I've never needed to respec in any fromsoft games. I've beat the base game with multiple builds and idk radahn felt cheap at times. So I cheap shotted him back 😂
this whole comment was written in the order of me watching this whole video… I watched the video twice and checked through my writing once… there is definitely mistakes, errors, and such in the writing but I've tried to make it come from a place of understanding and not a place of snobbery or worship of FromSoft. oh yeah and warning it's a giant text wall
So the harping on the 'expensive' nature of the DLC feels a bit…. disconnected with reality to me. the price is expensive for DLC in the gaming market as a whole when not looking at anything else aside from the price (aka only looking at the price and not looking at what you receive with that DLC) with Shadow of the Erdtree you receive effectively Elden Ring 2. Compare that to effectively every single Sims 4 DLC (same price as Shadow of the Erdtree but wildly less content) the harping on the price of the DLC when compared to how other companies are pricing it feels a bit…. disingenuous.
regarding that feeling of a lack of immersion it kinda just sounds like you're not letting the game speak for itself? or you're expecting the game to have handed you 3 books of lore on you already as to why you should feel sad as opposed to you learning and discovering things on your own? (that and the example you gave of the Shaman Village gives you a decent level of information self contained in it through the Minor Erdtree incantation you receive inside it) and in regards to the story not being inside of the game… it… it is? the story definitely feels a lot more like you're experiencing a situation you don't understand what's happening then somewhere between 20 minutes to maybe an hour as you keep progressing it clicks as to what was happening there. The complaints regarding the story definitely feel a bit odd given that it's a FromSoft game and every single time the story has been obfuscated unless you decide to look for it. The story inside of Elden Ring (at least the broad strokes and important info) seems less obfuscated then the stories of Dark souls 1,2,3 and Bloodborne (granted I don't know your stances on those stories so might not mean much).
The complaints regarding leveling new weapons and spirit ashes also feels a bit odd considering the DLC gives a wide amount of Smithing Stones on all levels (aside from smithing stones 1, and 2s in my experience) and even then if you did feel that you were burning an insane amount of materials that you wouldn't be able to recover there is always the albinauric farm inside Moghwyn (which I know you have) and getting runes from there is very fast and easy (you have Radahn's greatswords which are decent for farming them) grab the bellbearings for the smithing stones, somber smithing stones, and gloveworts and aside from being able to get them to the max you still have a decently leveled weapon or spirit ash that you can try for a bit and see if it fits you.
In regards to you losing the runes… the Twiggy cracked tear exists… you could have equipped it died then had your runes still (it would have also prevented you from failing to pick them up once and losing them permanently) if you changed your Physick flask to it just once then you would have not had the issue until you were able to pick them up then spend them into items you want or however. I also never really felt that I had to farm too much (finished the DLC around level 210 and I spent maybe 30 minutes of that farming in inconsistent bursts to buy smithing and somber stones more then anything really) I personally would absolutely hate the idea of a consumable that is both limited in quantity and only changes selected qualities. this idea seems like it runs counter to your complaint that Elden Ring punishes you for upgrading weapons and spirit ashes not allowing you to viably change builds easily.
I agree almost entirely with the camera complaints. I don't use lock on 100% of the time however so those experiences of (I'm in the wall and I can't see) genuinely solve themselves when you just lock off and take control of the camera yourself for a moment re-adjust where you are then re lock on.
as for the reuse of bosses… This feels like you were expecting just a whole new game? I didn't really feel like bosses or anything were reused too much. given how large it is… the reuse of dragons can feel a bit meh considering you experience a good chunk of them all in one quick sprint but aside from that everything is separated out far enough to feel decent and at least not horrible in it's reuse. Restating lock on and camera complaints. If you learn the basics of fighting without lock on (really easy to do for bayle considering you can just whack his legs and tail and be about 85% safe with close to no awareness) it solves almost all the camera issues because you now have control over where you're looking (it also adds a bit of depth… personally the DLC felt better playing mostly without lock on only using it to snap the camera when bosses were jumping or flying over me) also… (this is me being pedantic) but the Ancient Dragons have nearly the exact same lock on issues that bayle does cause none of them are anywhere near useful for melee
Complaints regarding Radahn (I will be honest I don't like this boss either but) you do have hit windows… change your weapon… you're using a colossal sword one of the slowest weapons in the game of course there are going to be less openings for you to punish the boss without trading damage. As for the second phase… yeah… I agree with you like 90% here the difficult of the second phase feels a lot less like one of skill and more like rock paper scissors on whether or not you chose to look at those attacks and build around them as opposed to getting skilled at fighting them
sorry for writing this whole text wall of a comment but wrapping it up… I genuinely want to ask…. where else would you go if FromSoft decided to make Elden Ring 2? (this is meant as a way to see what you gauge as being at level with FromSoft or higher)
The DLC is not expensive for 40 dollars, there are more than 100 weapons and 6 new weapon variants, 10 main bosses of which 8 are unique and 25 are subbosses, some are unique and others repeated, 26 enchantments, 14 magic
45 sets of armor, 40 talismans, 8 crystal tears, 14 new npc and quest, almost 80 ashes of war, new sleep state and flame of Mesmer, two new forms of Evuatr attack, Sekiro's blockade and the pass behind bloodborne, new objects creabels and throwables njevas builds cais infigian based on the added content if we were to add this with any dlc on the market this not only surpasses them in quantity but quality especially in terms of unique bosses only monster hunter could do something like that.
11:11
1) Most people who play these games do so for the bosses and combat, rather than the story.
2) Stop acting like it's some herculean task to read the description of the new item you pick up.
13:49
That's really is your own damn fault. You choose to go into a boss fight with the runes to lose. Either spend them on something, or go explore another place that isn't as high risk.
Ill be honest withchu brother
I was thinking the same thing about the bosses but i learned the patterns and i got good it took me a few to tries to learn the bosses you should do the same
You can avoid radahns gravity pull attacks if you know how to
Malenia also used to do multiple combos , hyper armor , life steal , scarlet rot and she hits like a truck
If learn the patterns like i did
26:45 You can roll back 2 times without taking a hit. But i was light rolling so maybe i can run away from that i don't know about mid roll. By the way i agree with you about the things you said for final boss. But i am okay with it if this design only stays within this boss. (i didn't say his name because of spoiler reasons ehehe)
28:40 I did!!!! It took me 3 days or something and i did it with jerren's sword too ehehe.(I promised him he will have an honorable dead)
It would be nice to be more accurate when you make these critiques. You claim there are "at least 6 Ghostflame dragons". This is not the case. There are only 3. I also find it weird how much the presence of a boss HP bar seems to piss people off when it's not a totally unique enemy. Like, no one cares that there are 4 hippo enemies in the open world that drop scadu blessings. They don't have boss HP bars so people just view them as elite enemies and they don't care.
Same goes for the furnace golems, of which there are 8. No boss HP bar = no issue, apparently. On the other hand, 3 Ghostflame dragons is somehow an affront and an egregious example of repetition, because they do have boss HP.
I just find it very silly that something purely cosmetic, like the presence of a boss HP bar, could have such a massive influence on how people perceive these enemies. Ultimately the boss HP is just a UI choice, it doesn't actually change anything. To me having field bosses repeated is irrelevant. They are basically just elite enemies, or mini-bosses if you will. Almost all games re-use elite enemies / mini-bosses to some extent.
And the field bosses are totally optional. Don't wanna fight a 3rd dragon? Well don't. You can ride past it. So to me it's almost a total non-issue. The most important thing is whether these fights are fun or not. If the Ghostflame dragon was an incredibly fun fight, then I wouldn't mind fighting it even 10 times. I've fought Isshin in the Sekiro boss rematches dozens and dozens of times, because it's insanely fun.
That's the core issue imo. A lot of fights in Elden ring are not that fun imo, and I think that is a much bigger concern than simply repeating a dragon mini-boss a couple times. Again, if it was a great mini-boss that people were eager to fight, it would be totally fine. Or if it just didn't have a boss HP bar, I guess, lol.
That said I do agree with some of your other criticisms. Some aspects of the combat and boss design in particular are indeed getting stale for me, which is sad. I'd also add that while you said FS have been essentially re-using the same combat system for 10 years, the truth is it has been 15+ years.
Demon's Souls came out in Feb 2009, and let's be real, despite all the additions and refinements, the combat in Elden ring is still essentially the basic Demon's Souls template. So yeah, imo they definitely need to massively revamp it. Sekiro was a great example of innovative design with some Souls influence but a lot of its own DNA as well.
They need to something else in that vein.
Your assumption about the notes being left there if you missed something is incorrect. Those notes from Leda and other NPCs are always in those locations, it has nothing to do with missing quests or dialogue.
I dont mind the repeat enemies. Fromsoft made this in just 2 years and it's an extention of the main world so you would expect some of the same enemies. Plus what other game does what Elden Ring does better? Fromsoft is still only competing with themselves.
11:02 on you lost me.
okay the dlc is not "surprisingly expensive" wtf bro with the amount of stuff you get 60$ (aud) is a steal
Yeah, the runes dropping inside the boss arena actually felt WAY worse than ever for me – because after playing Lies of P, I know how much better it feels if the game keeps the potential XP-loss where it belongs, which is in the levels, not in the boss arena. Even on my first playthrough, I didn't spend a single second farming anything, becaus LoP just allows you to keep playing.
Going back to ER after that was kinda aggravating. "Well, looks like a boss door. I am 15.000 short, time to murder some Albinaurics in their sleep between two loading screens". Nothing of value is gained here for the player, it's just tedium.
Also, the whole souls-run mechanic was made for games that are mostly linear, so getting back to your runes was always the way you're going anyway.
However, the whole point in ER is that you should just go somewhere else if you can't make progress, but your runes dropping after death actually tie you to a place. And since I have been complaining about Hollow Knight putting the souls-run in a game that is harmed by it, I can't give ER a pass – this mechanic was not a good fit, they should've come up with something else.
i agree with pretty much everything said in this video, the barren open world clashing with classic souls formula along with the usual slop open world gives serving as filler and the outdated combat mechanics though one thing i personally find dissapointing in the DLC is that none of the dungeons came close to the quality of the base game with the exception of shadow keep if i'm being horribly generous
This DLC is a 10/10 Idk wut ur talking about.
In all seriousness you were definitely right when you said Fromsoft was one game away from their formula becoming stale. This is that game.
Anyone else notice every negative review is from big bonk bros refusing to try anything else? It's because they could never use most loot even in base game.
It's more of the same…
Yeah.. that's kind of why I bought it 🤨
And the final boss is just a DS3 boss we already fought
I would have been happy to pay $40 just for the weapons and armor they added.
Every other game would have locked it behind several battle pass paywalls.
I suspect the honey moon phase is slowly coming to an end and in a couple months time, a lot more people will be calling out the DLC for what it is. a 6 or 7/10 and no more.
bro trying to emitate joseph Anderson not knowing that JA is a clown so is he
Excellent video. From has lost the plot and whether or not they are willing and able to see that snd course correct will be interesting to see.
Sekiro did the shadowtree fragments better with putting them behind boss kills as memories. witch rewards you for boss kills instead of exploration, because the problem with hiding them behind exploration is that once you have played trough it once, it becomes extremely tedious to do a second time and makes it feel like homework to get them, while behind boss kills it becomes rewarding because the point of these games are always the bosses no matter how many playtroughs, so they should just continue doing that.
Good analysis. I think open worlds don’t suit fromsoft level design. They peaked with DS3-Bloodborne in terms of striking the right balance with world size. The reused dragons and tree spirits are just lazy, and I feel like it’s because all the work went into legacy dungeons (which aren’t that good compared to base Elden ring game)
You encapsulated my thoughts on Radahn perfectly.
If you need to heal you have nothing to show for the last 30 seconds of dodging… It's not fun.
Radahn's follow-up to the gravity pull attack can be completely avoid by running away from him and jumping.
I think beyond the stagnant gameplay and the open world issues, the setting of ER really adds to the stagnant feeling. I could never really get into it, because to me it seemed like a kitchen sink setting, like a greatest hits mix where they threw in every previous concept from their games without a thematic reason, making it seem watered down and just being there for no real reason. Case in point, the frenzied flame stuff. In bloodborne the whole story and world is built around the concept of madness and so the game's setting stands out and the concept is given depth. In contrast in ER it's just one of many curses like undeath and isn't given much thought. Same with the existence of lovecraftian gods like those from bloodborne don't feel impactful because they share the world with traditional fantasy gods and other entities that you stumble upon, and so are not as threatening nor thematic to the world and so lose their intrigue, awe and depth.
This was cemented for me in the DLC when you meet the Winter lantern reskins in the Abyssal woods, which had zero impact since I've seen it before and it has none of the thematic weight behind them. Doesn't help that rune loss is completely irrelevant at that point and they're in an open area so you can just run around them. All of this can also be applied to the concept of undeath and hollowing that is so strong in Dark souls and informs the entire game and mechanics, but are again just watered down and one of many concepts in the lands between. I would argue that in dark souls and bloodborne you will feel a resonance when experiencing the story even if you don't know the story in depth, because it's thematically resonant despite the plot being obtuse. In ER there were so many moments where I just felt like characters were speaking (a lot more than in previous entries) but not saying anything and you couldn't intuit wtf was going on, like the Margit encounters. His design with horns and a monster-tail who throws holy magic against you, which is aeshetically incoherent at a glance and you need lore to have it make sense. In dark souls this guy would have been undead but wear priest robes and be called "abbott" or something, so when he throws holy magic at you you understand why and it feels coherent. Then as insult to injury when you've finally conquered the capital, do you get a new boss? No, here's that guy again, which you can't intuit why and have to learn lore to appreciate. And it feels off.
In Sekiro they play with the same themes of immortality and breaking cycles as they always do, but they stick to that one concept and look, and when they add more spoken dialogue they tie it with a more explicit story, with hidden lore as a supplement to this. It makes it all feel coherent and fresh despite sharing similar themes from previous entries. It also makes a world that is primarily filled with living people feel more believable. In contrast, ERs world just feels a bit off where it's not nearly as fallen as in dark souls where everyone was undead, and yet normal people don't speak and just act as if they were, unlike in Sekiro where they all emote and speak. For this reason, going into a military camp just feels odd in ER, it's like they just hang around acting like undead without much reason, same reason why I wasn't as wowed by the capital as everyone else seems to be, because it just feels dead in a way they're not really going for. And I believe this all stems from having too many concepts and themes in the game, while also refusing to evolve the narrative style to fit the story they want.
One of the main issues with Elden Ring and now Shadow of the Erdtree is that many activities in the open world do not lead to any progression. You ride through a lot of empty space and only rarely find something that is of value for your own build. I agree that at least to some degree this problem has been tackled with the Scadutree Fragments. However, when I am now thinking of playing the DLC again and take into consideration that before I am going to fight any boss I might want to collect all the free blessings pickups, which will take a huge amount of time even with a guide, my motivation to start a new playthrough is drastically lowered.
There would have been a very simple way to combine the classical linear Dark Souls levels with the open world: just make a map that is segmented such that each part of it is protected behind a boss who needs to be defeated (like Fire Giant in the base game or like Jori in the DLC, for example). There is no greater reward than having unlocked a new part of the world to be discovered. The best open world games are the ones which contrain the freedom of the player and where one needs to progress through the game (like winning boss fights and the like) in order to be able to go to certain places on the map.
His gravity move isn’t guaranteed damage if you get pulled, even with a medium roll. The solution is the exact same as the rock sling attack he does: Run immediately opposite of him and jump when he swings his blades, he will ALWAYS miss you. If you light roll, you can spam it backwards and it won’t hit you.
I like an impartial critique but these are mostly smug surface-level gripes that frames much of the DLC in a deliberately negative light.
You really should’ve said that you bounced off the DLC because it wasn’t what you expected (or it was and you’re being an indulgent cynic). So many things I disagree with here, but hey what’s right for me might not be right for you. If only you could deliver your POV without slandering other YouTubers and FromSoftware at 11 minutes in; that catty remark really devalues your criticism and makes the audience question the nature of this video.
If you asked someone what order they thought fromsoft games came out most people would think sekiro is thr newest one and thats the problem just like you said theyve done all they can do with this system
You just need to Parry Them 😀
This dlc is 8, maximum.
I have to say I genuinely don't know what people expect from open world design. That or maybe I'm just completely lost on the use of the word barren. I'm starting to think some people just don't like the open world concept at all.
Also, I'm lost as to the claim that a large number of bosses were coppied from the base game as well. Some open world enounters like basic dragons or ulcerated tree spirits certainly apply, as well as that one demihuman queen, but lets not forget that every cave and catacomb in the DLC has a new boss. That's on top of every mainline progression boss being unique as well as some sidequest rememberance bosses. That less than 50% comment seems pulled out of someone's nethers. It seems like you knwo that as well when you later compliment the thematic diversity of bosses later.
But ultimately it seems the core complaint is one I wholly disagree with, that there is a need to kill the fundamental formula of the games in favor of something else. The games built upon a core concept that was established in Demon's souls and has aged, yes. But that's true of most gameplay conventions in different genres available today. Few games are wholly reinventing gameplay, especially sequels trying to appeal to an established player base that comes back for an evolution of the same. And that's what we got. You are correct in that the expansion is constrained by the mechanics of the base game, and that's obviously expected as this isn't a sequel, it's a large expansion. I'm not going to get into subjective squabbling over the price, I'll just point out that it sold very well from what we've seen, and price perception has not been a major, widespread complaint.
All in all these feel like the complaints, not of someone who wants elden ring and shadow of the erdtree to be a better, more refined version of what it sets out to be, but instead wants a fundamentally different game that happens to have a few points of overlap with what ER is.