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– Does King Benjamin reference the Book of John?
– What to make of Mosiah 14 being the exact same verses found in Isaiah 53? Great answer on this one!
– Mormon masterfully uses the juxtaposition of King Benjamin and King Noah throughout the text of Mosiah
– How are God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghose “One?
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I'm a little puzzled by what you say before and after the 25:00 mark regarding spirits and the Savior as an eternal being. You say that "all spirits have always existed." You do hedge that by implying somewhat that "spirits" and "intelligences" can be synonymous, and that is true in certain contexts. But the Latter-day Saint perspective distinguishes those in terms of thinking of them as elemental layers. Take this quote from a 2015 New Era article, which references D&C 93:29:
Before our spirit bodies were created, we each existed as “intelligence,” which “had no beginning, neither will it have an end.”
Or this quote, also from 2015, from Elder Christofferson: Prophets have revealed that we first existed as intelligences and that we were given form, or spirit bodies, by God, thus becoming His spirit children—sons and daughters of heavenly parents.
Or this 2010 quote from Elder Scott: What eternal purpose would have come from the Creation of the earth, where intelligences tabernacled with spirits would receive a body, if death were the end of existence and none would be resurrected?
Our spirits do have a beginning. They were created by Heavenly Parents (I assume in the same manner that physical bodies are created, but that's just my opinion). Jehovah is no different, other than he is the firstborn, which we members assume to mean, correctly I think, that Jehovah was literally the first spirit child conceived by our Heavenly Parents. It has always seemed to me that Jehovah being a created being is doctrine. Phrases like "eternity to eternity" aren't meant as literal descriptions of time (see D&C 19) but rather as descriptions of power and perspective (and yes, literal in the forward linear sense).
And of course, we don't even believe that God himself was always god. He was once a man, and therefore even his existence as God is not eternal in the backwards sense.
Anyway, I'm getting longwinded now. Perhaps you would choose different words on second thought, or perhaps I simply misunderstood what you were saying. I was just a little bemused. Thank you for any clarification.
Abinidi's discourse is one of Christology, not theology, His nature as both man and God and not His relation to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Big difference when you get the Christological focus of the chapter. No hint of trinitarianism.
I am learning so much more about the B of M from BOTH you and Jeff through these videos. Having been a member of the Church for over 40 yrs (converted at 16 yrs) I have read the book a number of times. It just further shows how the scriptures, ALL of the standard works, are a lifetime pursuit of study. I think Jeff is doing an AWESOME job for reading 📖 it for the first time. Thanks Greg 😊
2:13 it’s odd that these phrases would be seen as “plagiarism” because as I recall, God can plagiarize His own word through many prophets.
I’d like to see you, Greg, with Jennifer Roach from FAIR and Pastor Jeff
He focuses @ 23:20 on what he considers anachronisms because he doesn’t understand all the doctrine from our understanding using our definitions.
Makes me wonder how those who embrace Trinatarianism explain Jesus coming out of the water, while a voice above says, "This is my beloved Son!" Matthew, Mark, and Luke all mention a voice from Heaven!?
Here is an interesting concept that I gleaned from online firesides by Hrum Andrus.
How long is an eternity?
Most would respond forever or never-ending, but Hyrum points out from first hand sources that when one of Joseph Smith's original apostles did a calculation after discussion in the school of prophets and inquired of Joseph about the duration; Joseph responded something like, that sounds about right. The answer or calculation was just over 500 Billion years.
Well, that struck me. I have tried to comprehend that number of years, it is not possible, let alone 100 or 10 million – and might as well be forever in my mortal mind.
So if Christ was the firstborn of this eternity; organized as a spirit from the intelligences of this eternity – not created – then someday the work of this eternity will conclude.
This concept gives a greater understanding of phrases such as "from eternity to eternity" and "an eternity" or "in the eternities," which is how the scriptures use this term.
Greg, thanks for your great video response to his sketchy review of BOM readings.
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Hello Saints Pastor Jeff’s problem is that in trying to do something exciting, like a payroll dependent pastor creating a YouTube channel about exploring The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as an evangelical preacher, he doesn’t to believe in a Living Prophet and Apostles. He wants to believe that he, as a disciple of Christ who practices Priestcraft is better suited to evaluate the Book of Mormon than those of us, that are believers.
Sad for him.
Why are you promoting NIKE?
Remember, Jeff is continually working to debunk the book of Mormon because if he doesn't his paycheck disappears.
Sad really how he will never see it as anything else than an enemy.
The way I see it is that if a prophet is teaching about Christ, he would teach the same concepts. To me it would be like, Oh this teaching the same thing. The Lord would not teach different concepts….would he?
Thanks for your videos and explanations, glad I found your channel.
Great discussions.
Greg. This was VERY good. And needed.
What does Pastor Jeff believe about St. Matthew Chapter 5, verse 8? What does Pastor Jeff believe about Acts Chapter 7, verses 55–60? I know that the First Vision is true. God decides when and to whom these Scriptures are literally fulfilled. God will decide many times and to many people to literally fulfill this Scripture. I am curious if Pastor Jeff understands the significance of Right Hands. What does Pastor Jeff believe about Acts Chapter 7, verses 55–60, Genesis Chapter 48, verses 8–21, Chapter 49, verses 22–26? I want to ask if Pastor Jeff knows what the Torah is, and if he has ever seen one? What does Pastor Jeff believe about Ezekiel Chapter 37, verses 15–20? What does Pastor Jeff believe about Revelation Chapter 12, verses 7–9? What does Pastor Jeff believe about St. John Chapter 6, verses 37–40? St. John Chapter 10, verses 25–37? Doesn't Pastor Jeff believe that Heavenly Father is a God? Doesn't Pastor Jeff believe that Jesus Christ is a God? That they are two separate Gods, and that they are one in purpose? What does Pastor Jeff believe about St. John Chapter 17, verses 1–26, St. Luke Chapter 23, verse 34 and verse 46? Doesn't Pastor Jeff believe that God the Father is in Heaven and Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross and that Jesus Christ spoke to Heavenly Father on the Cross before He died? I believe that Jesus Christ is not a ventriloguist. Doesn't Pastor Jeff believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected and that He has a glorified physical body? I know that he does. I know that there are not any Sepulchres in Heaven.What does.Pastor Jeff believe about St. John Chapter 20, verses 1–20?
As a Protestant it's interesting to me that you point out that adoption in the New Testament for LDS means that we become sons and daughters of Jesus. And I assume you believe that the Son is then our elder brother in the pre-existence. For Trinitarians it's merely that we become God's sons at adoption, at salvation, so God is our Father in creation and salvation and Christ our elder brother because of salvation. Hebrews 2:11. So it's sort of switched as to when Jesus is our Father and when he's our brother.
And I would also say that I think this idea of eternal spirits, or eternal intelligence and how that specifically interplays with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and us being their children in the pre-existence is something we don't understand. Do you have a resource to suggest? Because I was shocked when I came across the idea in a YouTube comment. I was just assuming before if you believe God is a person then begotten was not eternally begotten, but understood more in terms of human procreation. Or maybe the Son is not eternally begotten but the Son is still eternal. I have no idea. In addition to Pastor Jeff not understanding it, I've recently watched YouTube conversations between Protestants and LDS, and once I realized I understood this wrong, I noticed when Protestants bring it up in a way LDS do not believe, but then the LDS are like, wait, what? But they do not correct the person and let the conversation continue. But I still really have no clue what aspects of the eternal were always there and then how that changed in the pre-existence over time.
I'm glad it's not just exmormon atheists who caught on to passages of the book of Mormon that mirror the King James Bible. When you don't have an emotional stake in believing Ether came before John, it's pretty easy to understand the idea that Joseph Smith may have just been weaving biblical ideas to give him and his scribes' document legitimacy.
There is a TV series called Undercover Boss. Where the employees do not recognise their boss as he works among them.
To the Jews Jesus Christ was the Undercover God or Undercover Jehovah, where the Jews did not recognise who he really was as he lived and walked among them.
This was because of apostacy and the loss of sacred scriptures from the old Testament Jewish record at the time of Jerimiah, etc.
On the other hand the Nephites had the brass plates and as Greg mentions those plates had a fuller record of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Jeff assumes the Jewish records of the Old Testament where whole and complete. Therefore in his mind the Book of Mormon is coping ideas from the New Testament.
I get what Greg is talking about.
Very great to see the mutual civility and breakdown of The Book of Mormon.
Would you please provide prove of the changes to the Bible you mention, or at least give a reference to them. Thank you.
By DOING (or experimenting on) the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, man comes to the knowledge of the truth. By LIVING the principles of the gospel, man walks with God.
Being hearers only of The Word allows room for confusion, doubt, and misunderstanding, which obviously sows seeds of contention, apathy, and division.
The Prince of Peace Himself (Jesus Christ) clarified in John 7:16-18
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall KNOW of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
"For God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten Son…"
If we all agree on this, then I would ask:
"Is it faith, or is it fear, which leads to a DESIRE TO BELIEVE? If we say we believe and desire to learn divine truth, then is it faith, or is it fear which leads to the KNOWLEDGE of truth? How does learning become knowledge without actual doing?
While we can believe in the words of doers, prophets, teachers, witnesses, testimonies, scriptural reenactments, and in the personal feelings of spiritual manifestations, such beliefs must be proven by time and circumstance.
How can this common cycle of learning ever advance if we do not heed The Master's admonition to DO THE THINGS WHICH HE HAS DONE?
Unless man applies sufficient faith to learn The Word, and sufficient faith to "experiment on The Word" man learnes, how can any man say for certain that they know it is or is not from God?
Man can easily experiment with technology by sending commands to a device to perform a task. So what value is a misunderstood command or even a command that is understood but is not executed? If the command is somehow blocked, even slightly, today's smart devices often repeat misunderstood commands because of their advanced protocols, which require verification of the commands.
Likewise,
Divine truth has no value to man unless man is willing to both receive such and use such for the divine purposes which they are intended.
Becoming "ONE" requires a willingness and a concerted effort from everyone to receive, verify, and execute God's will.
David Longhurst
It is not hard to understand that the most important source of gospel truth is Christ… who speaks through his prophets whether in the old world or the new. Why would be think that the same source revealing fundamental, essential doctrines on say, prayer to these groups would vary in the revelation? I hope it would sound really familiar or I would maybe think the source of the revelation is not the same. The Book of Mormon hath a familiar spirit, because it is coming from the THE SAME SPIRIT. Not a difficult concept.
The problem I have with Jeff is that it seems he is trying to discredit the Book of Mormon by comparing Bible scripture.
Is he insinuating that Joseph Smith stole from the Bible? Sure seems so.
After listening to conference and feeling eternal truth and the spirit. I listened to part of this and something felt wrong. There is an alternative motive here. And it’s not to testify of the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Trojan Horse
I hope pastor Jeff will get to the "bottom line," of his ultimate search for truth. Why is it certain that God would preach the same word fin two separate world called the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere ? Indeed, the Christian world can embrace the sscriptural idea that "that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. " That the ressurected Christ would preach common words in unison wit his principles and doctrines. The Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible speaks the same words because they originated from the same Author of the Plan of Salvation which is Jesus Christ. Indeed, prophet Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the power God and that it goes hands In hand with the Holy Bible testifying the divinity Christ.
I have really enjoyed Pastor Jeff's videos as I have watched almost all of them. I can see his bias though against the church in every single one of these "Pastor reads Book of Mormon" series. I feel like he has a foundation of prejudice of "the BOM of BS and Joseph Smith is a fraud, but hey! I still want to read this and dismantle it for evangelicals to see through." If you watch more and more of his videos, you can clearly see that he started his Hello Saints channel with a "oh yeah. The Mormon way of thinking is bizarre and fake, but let's play it off as 'curiosity'"
Im glad you emphasize the brass plates being a record from descendants of the tribe of Joseph, and that is a difference record. I try to understand why these people, like Jeff, can't see that there would be more than one group of people that would make records about their dealings with God. I think Jeff is no friend to us and is a typical Evangelical preacher trying to discredit our church. I don't know why you give creedence to what he says, coz he practises priestcraft and is intellectually dishonest.
I am so grateful Pastor Jeff is doing this! He’s reaching across the aisle to help all Christians join hands more easily. I appreciate your commentary and your friendship to him. This is exactly what the Profits since Hinckley have been asking us to do. God bless you both, you, Pastor Jeff, Latter Day Saints and other Christians that are reaching out to each other in and understanding way. Our Father in heaven is always pleased when we show love and understanding to one another.
Can you folks not see all these books are about history and I believe they did not take anything from each other.
Also click what are you trying to accomplish with your program?
I think the invention of the trinity was partially because Jews were calling early Christmas polytheistic, and trying to force the scriptures in a fix for that
It’s seems like Jeff has an ulterior motive. To create doubts for Latter Day Saints. He skips over the most beautiful and powerful scriptures to make comments that try to create doubt