Clive and Jill arrive in Twinside, the capital city of the Crystalline Dominion, just as Bahamut begins raging through the skies, destroying everything in his path. All the while, Joshua reveals himself as the Phoenix tries to stop him. Also, Anabella is horrible and continues to be horrible and insufferable, right up to her last moment. Leave a comment if you feel so inclined! Thanks for watching!
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Dion (1:30)
3. Bahamut (30:05)
4. Reunion (1:11:47)
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Also, for Olivier's disintegration- the same thing happens when you kill akashic humanoids, whereas regular humanoids stay as corpses, so pretty sure he was "real"
One thought I couldn’t shake during the bahamut fight is….why didn’t Jill prime too? lmao
One of the things I loved about the fight with Bahamut was when Ifrit and Phoenix merged and they were like "oh sht, we didn't even know we could do that" but actually, there were hints scattered throughout the game about that merged eikon being the true dominant of fire the entire time.
The way I understood Olivier becoming emperor is that he showed his father his powers under the guise that he was the embodiment of Greagor when it reality, it was the powers of Ultima that he was displaying.
I also wanted to point out the parallel between the Duke of Rosaria dying and Clive going crazy and Dion going crazy at the death of his father.
The mother crystal transforming to the flower felt like a defensive mask. It manipulates Dion not to harm it by representing the nation/family symbol, amping up the fight.
Anabelle references the shadow in her death scene.
I agree they dont give an adequate explanation for why Joshua didnt approach Clive before Phoenix Gate, but I assume he just wanted to deal with Ultima without involving Clive.
Love the pod.
I'm starting to feel like the story and world building are wide but not very deep. The story touches on a lot of interesting ideas superficially but doesn't go deep enough into any of them to be narratively satisfying.
In the same vein, it feels like we barely even saw the empire, republican, or dominion, and they've all pretty much collapsed. It feels like we're supposed to really care about people and places that were barely explored before they were killed/destroyed.
Joshua avoiding Clive is my no. 2 problem with the story. If he hadn't done that he could've been there (in time) to heal Cid…
Also I really hate how cheeky the writers get. Joshua starts to apologize to Clive and Clive says that it doesn't matter, all that matters is that they're together. Completely dodging one of the most important questions I had.
The soft magic thing is a bit different I believe. Gandalf does for example save them from the Balrog with magic we hadn't seen before. In Lord of the Rings it's done far better, but that is a pretty deep discussion too much for a YT comment. x)
I had assumed Joshua kept his distance in the beginning not so much from Clive but from Ifrit. Knowing that Clive had no grasp or control over the Eikon whose instinct seems to be attacking the others would inform his decision to keep watch at a distance. It also seemed as though he had some prior knowledge, perhaps from Jote, that Ultima existed and had designs for Clive. As for after he sealed Ultima within himself, I was under the impression that He was trying to keep as much distance between Ultima and Clive as possible, but Ultima still seems capable of manifesting outside of Joshua and then Clive and Joshua not only meet up at Twinside in the same location but also physically merge seems to quash that idea.
Joshua has ultimate in him. Joshua and Clive fuse. Thereby Clive fused with ultima. Hmmm
I don't know why blue-cintergrate is so funny but it clearly is:)
Ahhh. Xenogears gets brought up again. Can we get a remaster of xenogears already.
You should definitely do a post-credits ATL episode, as new entries are added with the Clear Save, and others get updated as well!
Annabella talks to Clive and Jill like that because she believes she’s better then them, that’s why she’s not worried about the power they have. It’s like when going out to eat you can watch people treat the wait staff like crap, when in fact those people control their service and food. Then watch them leave a 50 cent tip and bitch about their “bad”experience when in fact them thinking they are more important then other patrons and/or the employees led to their bad experience in the first place. Using rational thinking doesn’t work for someone who thinks others aren’t worthy of them.
You know what's funny? I took the EXACT same screenshot from the exact same moment of the game framed precisely the same way.
holy crap we need a release of that picture :'D
I agree that Ultima using people's shadows would have been awesome, and would have tied in with the earlier fight of Clive against himself. This reminds me of Babidi's Majin Powers in Dragonball Z. It seems that a person's will is what can prevent Ultima from taking possession. Many questions remain though as it seems Joshua has trapped Ultima but not entirely. I would like to find some clarity on this and it might easily be that I missed something or didn't piece it together.
Whenever I hear Metia, I always think re zero
I wanna say what I think about the whole Ultima influencing things including people like Annabelle but it spoils what happens later 😭
I think Anabella’s character makes sense without major influence of Ultima.
Give a psychopath a little power, and let them get away with it, then they think they’re invincible.
Annabella goading Dion is reminds me of Tien and Vegata's back and forth in DBZ Abridged. "You know he can kill you right?" Tien: "Yes, but if he does that means I win, and he knows that."
Joshua avoided Clive all this time because of the influence of Jote and her group. Like in the inn, it was Jote that saw Clive and ran away with Joshua. Probably to protect Joshua.
The resemblance to Clive and Joshua in that face swapped picture is uncanny. lol
Would you just go running up to the person that murdered you without making sure he was not gonna just murder you again?
Wow that’s crazy. I hated the Titan fight. It was arduous and felt like a slog because it had no real emotional stakes…
The Bahamut fight was amazing, it was more fun and it had more emotional stakes fighting with Joshua…
The Kupka arc, is the weakest arc in the game. Kupka is reduced to an emotional oaf, and his prime fight is better than the Eikon fight. I’m sorry but the sonic adventure experience of the second phase of Titan combined with the music, took me out of my rhythm of the game. It was a low light for me personally so much so that possibly shortening act 2 of the game with Kupka would have made the game better.
I see some similarity between Anabella and Stan Edgar (The Boys) with how the latter is not scared of Homelander. So while Dion can easily decimate her, she has leverage.
I LOVE this podcast. It's my favorite podcast in existence these days. But this episode in particular had a lot of things to discuss in it. Apologies for the lengthy comment.
1) I'm not certain Olivier was ever human. When the Sylvestre Lesage says "they are the words of a god," I think he says that because Olivier appeared as a sort of immaculate conception and then revealed himself to be Ultima, who is, indeed, a god. He may have masqueraded as Greagor, but I'm not sure since Sylvestre says "god" not "goddess." Regardless, I think the emperor knew that Olivier was not just a child.
2) I actually think your new canon that Ultima controls people through their shadows has plenty of evidence for it and seems completely right. For instance, Harpocrates says at some point that Ultima is a force of nature, which sounds exactly like Ultima is just the embodiment of the shadow we all have within us. More tenuously but still interesting: Joshua sealed Ultima inside himself when he was coming for Clive – symbolically saving Clive from his shadow's belief that he killed Joshua. Ultima claims that consciousness holds back people's will and that constrains his power, which makes perfect sense if "will" represents their shadow. His goal seems to be to push the realm into chaos so people revert to baser instincts so he can grow his power over them. They may have been able to hint a bit more that that was what was happening, but I don't know if you can do that without being heavy handed. I also don't know fully how to work the wound that Joshua has into this theory, nor do I fully grasp why Clive was chosen as Mythos. I do hope it's revealed late in the game though.
3) If your theory is indeed canon, then I do wonder a bit about Cid's role too. Cid knew who Ultima was when they were introduced. Cid's shadow would have been that he felt slighted by the way bearers were treated. Ultima could manipulate that into acting on a plot to detroy the mothercrystals. It seems to me that the mothercrystals destruction is aiding him: he is able to push the darkness into the sky after one is destroyed and he emerged after one crystal was destroyed. As you noted last podcast, the world isn't exactly getting less blighted by the destruction of these crystals.
4) lol @ the fact that the people of Valisthea think the world is ending just because it gets a little cloudy. Guess they wouldn't like living in Seattle or London!
I cannot remember the exact scene but at some point Joshua mentions Ultima being able to project himself, I believe he even says via consciousness, despite being trapped within him. And given that we never see Ultima appear as an independent entity, just to those that he holds influence over, I think it's not far fetched to say Ultima holds power over shadows.
So where Dion tries to Destroy the Crystal as Bahamut, I feel that it was him gaining back some of his sanity and realizing he needs to kill it to best Ultima. But Ultima shields the crystal and Dion continues to be consumed by his emotions.
Secondly Toxic people (or Parent) in Annabellas case she acts how she always acts and isnt deterred even by primals. It has worked throughout her life and feels everyone is beneath her. So groveling at Clives and Jills feet (even though being primals) isnt in her nature / ever crosses her mind.
I did not know the Bahamut fight had lyrics. I was too engrossed in the spectacle. Definitely will listen to it!
Annabella acts the way she does because she 100% believes in the institutional power of nobility. She believes that she should not have to woo anyone beneath her to get what she wants. All of her manipulations are aimed at people of equal station or greater. Is that stupid in the context of the scene? Maybe, but I wouod argue that's sort of the point. She is from the same ruling class that is driving this society into complete ecological collapse. Getting snippy at Clive and Jill seems par for the course.
I raise my glass to Casen's suggestion regarding the shadow and how Ultima could influence people through that. It would be thematically appropriate as well. The whole point of the shadow in Jungian psychology is that it will direct your life unless you integrate it, like Clive did. Having Ultima influence people through the shadow would bring things full circle.
40:18 I was convinced that THAT was IT. Ultima controls the shadows or influences them somehow, Ultima casted their bodies away so their only means of interaction with the world and with people is through their consciousness
The theory you guys have about Ultima controlling the shadow sounds a lot like the villain in Persona 5. Controlling people's shadows, even controlling the collective unconscious, is his whole schtick.
Im glad Donald Duck has company as someone who can cast Zetaflare.
As someone who has watched the rest of FFXVI's story, I think you and Casen's idea about Ultima and the shadow sounds a million times better than some of whatever the hell happens later on, and it would have awesome if that was the case in the game itself. I am not going to go any further but trust me when I say that y'all's idea is better and makes a whole lot more sense. It would have been very fun if the FFXVI world was meant to have their own version of Myyah/Miang except instead of manifesting in women, Ultima manifests in the shadows of any person who has a weak will or poor relationship with their shadow. I know this happen but SE we need a Xenogears remake/remaster, we keep seeing too many elements of it in this game!
Also, you make a good point on how Joshua and Clive don't meet each other again until this section of the game. Despite me trying to figure out why after watching some parts of the game again and finding the active time lore logs online (yes you can find the ATL logs online now thanks to Final Fantasy Wiki), I could not come with a good conclusion for why Joshua doesn't meet Clive again for 13 years. With the first few years it is understandable when the ATL explains that Joshua was found alive, was recovering during those few years with the help of a third party, and was doing research of his own with his brother's Eikonic awakening and Ultima. With the 5 year timeskip after Typhon however, the only explanation I can come up with was that Joshua wanted to do more investigation on Ultima while staying away from Clive again to keep Ultima from getting to his brother. This however still does not explain that well why the reunion took as long as it did and overall this part of the game feels like weird writing.
Also, I tried to see the potential in her character, I really did, but Annabella is a real freaking clown in this part and even with the eugenics royal blood obsessive, abusive parent part of her and Ultima's influence through her new child, why on EARTH would you piss off your son, Dion who has the power of gay and Bahamut on his side, Jill & Shiva and not expect there to be consequences. Like's ma'am where was the sense at? I'm glad she's out of the story after Bahamut because this last part of her screen time sucked and it made me dislike her character even more than I already did. If Annabella was going to backslide, why have her piss off the very man whose Eikon is so powerful that Bahamut could have destroyed the entire world if his rampage wasn't stopped? The world could have become a giant KFC basket if Clive and Joshua didn't do the DBZ fusion that they somehow managed to do. Bonus: I want to congratulate Bahamut for officially being stronger than Donald Duck!
In a lot of ways I like the story in the second half better because I am a Final Fantasy nerd who loves the "it's time to defeat the True Evil" part of FF games because it starts to move away from the slavery plot line (a plot line that I have a lot of opinions on as someone who is Black and Nde (Chiricahua Apache), and was a Ethnic Studies college student who observed various stories about slavery that were better in their presentation and narrative). Another reason is because of how it moves on to the topic of will and consciousness (which are well done imo and is very Xenogears and Xenosaga/Xenoblade). At the same time however, the way the story starts to show more of its issues as it goes on (partly because of Ultima) is kind of disappointing because it feels like FFXVI doesn't hit the potential that it could have had and with dlc possibly on the way I want to see if said dlc can help the story with its weird holes. I apologize for the essay and thank you for the episode!
I think one of the issues I had was Annabella's age. At the beginning of the game, Clive is 15, and if Annabella is his mother that would mean she would have to be (realistically) in her 30's. Then a large time skip would put her in her mid to late 40's then a final 5-year skip, so she should be in her early 50's! Yet, Annabella still looks as if she's still in her 30's in her final cut scenes. Just thought it a bit odd as everyone else aged appropriately. My only guess is maybe Ultima was using his power to keep her young enough to continue exercising his will?
Games need to do tutorials like the first Kingdom Hearts