Steve PMLG is broken still and anyone saying otherwise doesn’t understand why it is good
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Very well put together. 👏
Steve, BUSTED!
"It's hard/it's tight" is never an excuse for broken stuff to me. Good players will learn hard/broken things as time goes on
So many people are saying that this tech should be banned along with Steve, then there are a lot of people saying that Steve shouldn’t be banned but just the tech, and finally there’s a third decently sized group who think that neither Steve or the tech should be banned (think of how Japanese players don’t think much of it despite the fact they have the best Steve player in the world). Given all this you can’t just say, “The tech itself is broken so Steve should be banned.” What needs to be done is allow the tech and Steve at all tournaments, see what that does to the tournaments, and if Steve is overwhelming, ban the tech and potentially Steve. By not allowing the community to experiment with the tech and actually see if it’s as good in tournament as it is in theory, we’ll always be in stagnation, and never progress with this debate. And for any who would argue, “Don’t do that! Allowing free reign would potentially harm the community if the tech is broken!!”, just know that as broken as Steve could get with this tech, Sm4sh Bayo and Brawl Metaknight were way more broken, and they were technically never completely banned. A trial run needs to be done to decide all this.
Imo Steve deserves the ban regardless of pmlg. The character is WAY overtuned
I'm so glad you made a video from this material
I'm not even convinced about the no tumble thing, because we've seen clips of Steve being hit by moves like Yoshi fair and even Ganon dair at percentages that would absolutely send into tumble but he goes nowhere. So how do we explain that? Clearly there's some more factors involved.
We should ban little mac
So this is what Acola was talking about at summit 6?
So steve is still busted and unhealthy for ultimate
Even if it does suck, there’s no reason for it to be legal
I totaly get it's not as strong as believed. But it still a combo breaker on Steve. That leed to actual combo.
Not like snake and duck hunt who also get damaged.
I don't know where in competitive, Steve is a problem. Is it at high level? Mid? Or low? But it didn't seem to be too. Broken at high level. Like not winning by itself. So Im still not approving the ban.
Thats what I would have said if that tech didn't existed. It's basicly punishing the enemy for winning neutral.
If I could chose one mod to make for the game I would patch phantom blocks and nerf block life time when above void or too high above the stage (when not standing on them, to not break combos)
Some people really do argue that 'you have to mind read your opponent' for it to have value. Just option select it and play the odds. That describes like 95% of the game anyway. And it's not like saving a specific option/trick for a crucial moment when you've conditioned your opponent and learned their habits can't decide an entire set either.
7:46. I remember GimR labbed it on the hbox pmlg video (the long one with all the steve mains) and it can be buffered out of hitlag so what Rockman says here is wrong if GimR is correct.
EDIT: gimr was right, the hitstun cancel can be buffered, but Rockman (and acidarmy below) is right that the action out of hitstun can't be buffered, GimR actually confirmed this when he said I just messed up. This makes a lot of sense since the cancel is just a buffered b-press. I got it wrong, my bad. Being able to buffer the cancel goes a long way in making it easier to use though
ESAM or anyone, please explain how PMLG doesn't get Steve out of true combo's. If I have a combo starter that doesn't send it to tumble, PMLG gets Steve out of hitstun immediately and I won't be able to finish my combo. Where is the flaw in my reasoning here?
PMLG isn’t practical and won’t be used in real games. – an actual former Steve player who has done PMLG and knows others who agree that aren’t Steve players.
To be completely honest it's not that big of a deal and he shouldn't be banned in general I'm an inceniroar main btw regardless of how "broken" this tech can be it's the most niche thing in the entire game imo lmao
So what I gathered here is this. The video in question's main argument is that Steve players don't actually want to do the technique in certain specific situations. Whereas ESAM's points make me consider the original video to be slightly naive. That there won't be emergent situations (thus strategies) from this technique to make specific entire match-ups, or just simple option selects, something stupid like 70-30 ect ect, while Steve players also just ignore it in situations that it isn't so absurdly helpful to them. While I do think the technique has a little bit of Shulk syndrome to it, the technique is also on a character that doesn't need the technique(s) to preform at a top, character pick-wise, level, unlike Shulk.
There's also the elephant in the room that there's Potential here of forcing a lot of the cast to respect the technique's anti-hit-confirm tools (potential advantage state reversal; that breaks some big smash fundamentals). That of which scares off engages against the best character in the game and possibly heavily enables even more stall from the Steve player, maybe enabling even more value from material gathering for Steve. Add on his fast and good normals, you might get hit just for successfully hitting Steve, even if it's just "sometimes."
Steve should be legal imo.
If so the Steve mains wouldn't use PMLG after that then it's good, it's like PMLG doesn't exist in the first place.
But if a player provenly used PMLG in a match then ban Steve on said tournament. (and ban said player from using Steve again)
"If I knew this tech wouldn't be banned, if I knew Steve wouldn't be banned, this would be the only thing I practice." 7:21
There are a lot of good arguments here. While I was on the side of the "why PMLG sucks" video, you've proven it remains broken. I would never use the tech, even as a steve main, primarily because if it gets commonly used, thats an easy steve ban without mentioning the steve bans people have already done. I really do think a tech ban works in most of these cases. Any Steve that is able to win and do well wouldn't want to jeopardize their standings by doing a tech that shouldn't exist.
Did that guy really just say one of the reasons why pmlg sucks is because you can ONLY SOMETIMES get out of multihits for free?!💀😭
There goes Esam thinking he's the spokesperson for Smash community using his platform to get his opinion out there. Being an influencer, you shouldn't be advocating for major changes due to your own opinion.
Homie really said "If I still played Steve, and I knew this technique wouldn't be banned, this would be the only thing I practice" …yeah because you're a shitty person? There's not much else to it, you could see it in your personality
Bit of a misconception in RockMan’s video that I noticed as well, Steve’s fastest reversal option is NOT airdodge, it’s footstool at frame 2, which also has the following advantages:
– True combos into Anvil
– Prevents specific anti-PMLG scenarios from happening
– If mispaced vertically, can usually still allow Steve to jump or phantom footstool to gain elevation out of the multihit
What do you mean?
The literal counter arguement for this is: if every character had PMLG, we would just be playing Brawl again. If either of my mains; Cloud or Terry had this, so much more of their kit would be hard to play against.
esam, great video. really great. great analysis, great counterpoints, great acknowledgements of good points from the other side. very impressed
9:41 this is a FREE cloud bair wym ;-;
I had respect for Steve players before this tech was found. Now, the propaganda getting spewed from so many steve players is very revealing. The fact that this situation isn't a consensus is ridiculous.
Kazuya should be banned. That character simply does not belong. Where we first saw that you can down throw ewgf we should've banned him. He's an insult to game design.
17:27 Steve's apparently not the kind of character that wants to avoid hitstun. Sure bro.
Steve players making steve look balanced would be incredibly funny if they weren't serious
Hear me out a Steve player that can the tech plays a set against someone and we just see how broken it would be. Easy
Not related to the video, but at certain angles, light reflects off of Esam’s head and makes it look like he’s missing a chunk of his skull
I absolutely do not respect Steve players at all because they do not deserve it. I think the playstyle is toxic and EZ and it's been pretty much demonstrably shown that the players are hard carried. Acting like these players are somehow worthy of praise just because you don't like people being mean to them is pathetic. Definitely lamest third-party DLC of all of Ultimate meant to pander to normies that defer to what's most popular as their default state and of course the character just had to be broken on top of it while Banjo a long time request is relegated to trash tier.
Says a lot about a player that's willing to play Steve for the last year or so. It definitely speaks to their terrible taste at least.
F Steve glad spargo beat Acola ass.
Steve SUCKS, Steve mains are so CARRIED
When is this plmg debate gonna end it’s getting tiresome af
Roll the dice for free combo escapes. PMLG is broken. Sorry.
Sorry I don't want to just assume for everyone. But Steve players have got to be some of the least self aware players I've ever seen.
Ik for alot of them it's their first/only fighting game. But still… try another one for a bit and come back to see how scuffed this is lol
1. Having the ability to make your opponent look for something in scenarios no one other than shulk (who does so on a timer) can escape?
Is a PRIVILEGE AND A HALF.
2. Almost none of you guys are optimal. The primary one who was approaching endgame steve was Yonni.
How are you going to speak about a techniques usefulness when you guys barely optimize your existing tech.
Just cause you are bad at the tech doesn't mean everyone will be
3. Every game that has freeze frames? Has OSs built in. Guess a timing. Do the tech and if it didn't come out? try again later lol
But unlike every other f1 out? It has the least commitment attached since even if you mess up
You place block…. and sometimes you can NIL shield onto it and get resources back
Now this wouldn't be so crazy on like a bottom 10 character. But when your character is already top 1 with tons of built in mix… and 0-60 strings by accident?
Having to second guess your already top tier disadvantage? (anvil, minecart, block) is messed up.
If Steve can create the ground in mid-air, is he a ground fighter or air fighter? 🤔🤔🤔
I've never really understood why parts of the smash community try to use difficulty of execution as a copout for egregious mechanical loopholes like this. Like y'all have the perfect fighting game case example on the planet in Melee. 85% of that shit that top players do is frame perfect inputs without a buffer where the margin for error is just death, not even disadvantage or getting sent off stage or ledge trapping or whatever, you just die. 🤷♂
This video has the same energy as the one back then "Shield Art isn't THAT broken, because it has 18 s of cooldown".
bald
As an old marvel player I say let it rock.
I’m a GANNON main and I don’t want Steve banned
I'll be real, after watching this video explanation and stuff, I don't think this shoulda been the reason Steve was banned lol
17:47 I think I'm confused here. At low %, Palus will use landing fair, which cannot be PMLG'd anyway since the Steve is grounded, unless you're talking about rising fair?
If the argument is: "you have to know what you're doing for it to be broken", then it's not a good argument. Melee players do frame perfect inputs as easily as they breathe. Knowing the timings for specific moves sounds more like a matchup knowledge check than a real top level obstacle. And it really is a top level thing. If we cared about low or mid-level play, then we'd be discussing snake, k-rool, and little mac bans.