38 thoughts on “Let *us* make humanity in *our* image?”
I learn something new at least once every day of my life. But this video clarified old info and supplied so much new info with the context it deserves my cogs will be spinning til I fall asleep tonight. Thanks D!
To everyone who is wondering what the divine council is:
Psalm 82:1 God presides in the divine assembly
Psalm 138:1A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee
Psalm 82:6,7 I have said, Ye are gods;
Jeremiah 23:18 But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word?
Daniel 4:17 “’The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’
Psalm 89:5–7 says, “The heavens praise your wonders, LORD, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones. For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings? In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.
Jer 23 22But if they had stood in my council,
Ps 89 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, And to be held in reverence by all those around Him.
1 kings 22 19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there
Thank you Dan! This is what I have thought all along. The question of where Cain got his wife from is, I believe, anwered by all of this. It makes sense to think that the other gods were also creating humans. Adam just happened to be the first.
At least Dan acknowledges that more than one being/entity is being talked about here, unlike the Muslims, who claim it's just one. But it's not three or more, it's two. Taking into account the sum total of all the writings that constitute "the Bible", the two are identified as Jesus & the Father.
And this my friends is why Evangelical Christianity poisons the water. The fundamental/literal misrepresentation of these texts are so grotesque. They take the Hebrew Bible and insert jesus/Trinity/satan characters all throughout it. Such a shame.
btw i like how dan has adopted " humanity " which gives no specification to how many humans are made . Its recognising that genesis 1 is the creation of categories not individual things
There are many places when a singular noun is present with a plural verb…..and a plural noun with a singular verb The idea of "just look at the tense of the verb", this idea falls, when considering that the texts have gone through a number of edits, and none of the texts are univocal…..Genesis by itself is not univocal
Throughout scripture, if a group of people are in agreement, a singular verb is used, yet they are plural
As to why a plural verb gets coupled with a singular noun, I am at a loss……I would need to see each case, but I know it happens
update i hate my unconscious Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass when THE MAN (singular) commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were BORN TO THEM (plural). i recognized this verse about a week ago, yet in my comment, I said that i was at a loss, because i couldn't remember this at all
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham were Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan Mizraim was a single man, with a name that was plural. Consider also: Genesis 10:13 And Mizraim begot the Ludim and the Anamim and the Lehabim and the Naphtuhim, Genesis 10:14 And the Pathrusim and the Casluhim, from whom P'leesh'tiym emerged, and the Caphtorim. These names are also plural, yet, they are individuals. Since they are individuals, hebrew would use a singular verb…..with a word that is clearly plural
I have seen this particular bit of Genesis used to show that the early Hebrews were not monotheists, and that their creation story shows them being created by more than one God.,and thus their cosmology has to answer the questions who were the other gods, what is their relation to YHVH and where did they all go since then
Yes, the use of "our" implies that it is plural. In this context, "our" suggests that there are multiple beings involved in the process of making humanity resemble themselves.
Dan, I am frankly bothered that you discount other possibilities and seem to offer the Latter Day Saints' interpretation of these passages as the correct one.
Regardless, this is a matter of 'how many angels might be able to dance on the head of a pin.' For Christianity, this is an unimportant matter that can only be left to guesswork and personal interpretation. We might as well say that this supposed council is a mystery, just as is the Trinity. Fine, but it gets us nowhere, except, I suspect, for members of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.
Of course, we can talk about a Monarchian monotheism, but this does not necessarily imply the existence of many gods, but instead a hierarchy of beings. (Principalities et cetera?) But does it matter? Do we know this truth? Do we really accept Genesis as the [i]literal[/i] word of God? Does this affect the Christian faithful?
The proof of the pudding, of course, is where do our suppositions lead us? What foundation have we built for ourselves? Is it sound in bring us to God?
Yes. Thank you. Ive been trying to convince people of this for years. Its not a royal "we/us" thing, it's not the trinity. Its a Council of beings, gods, deities.
If Judaism considered itself monotheistic by the days of the Dead Sea Scrolls (roughly Jesus's time), I am surprised that copiers of Genesis did not "correct" the plural references to be singular. Or maybe that was too large of a lift given that they would have to have deleted the divine council from the story (or perhaps just demoted all but one member?).
Dan, big fan of what you are doing. Data>Dogma. Evidence, Data, and Truth are what we should seek, no matter the source. Do you mainly focus on biblical history and try and always try to circle back to that with your research, (Study of Sumerian religion to help your better understand the Abrahamic religions) or do you have a broader interest in religion? (Study of connections between Siberian and Native American religious practices for a more holistic view of humanity and religion?)
That was fascinating. As a former Jehovah's Witness, your explanation had familiar elements, for example, the 'us' being Jesus in his pre earthly condition.
Now, as an atheist, I have a much broader view of the 'us' or council.
I have heard an argument from apologetics about a book written by a biblescholar saying that the trinity was established in the second temple period. Do you know what book i speak of? And why, i am assuming based on following you for a while, do you feel this is wrong?
The usual Christian reading is that the "divine council" are God's angels, not other Gods. At what point would this shift have occurred? The Torah DOES describe God traveling with angels, as when he visits Abraham, so when exactly did the writers/mythology come up with the idea of unnamed, generic angels as opposed to specific, named Gods?
Hello Dan. I just like to ask. What do you think of the account of Genesis chapters 1 to 3. Is it a literal creation in a sense it is the way how is the universe created and God created humanity in order to take care of the earth ( Let us say while still small population to take care of Eden ) and when population grow will take care of the whole earth. What about the conversation between Eve and the Serpent was it literal? Did it literally does something to Adam's humanity that affected our personality too when he ate with Eve?
Are there substantiative records for Lilith? It’s my understanding that the divine council first created Adam and Lilith. But, Lilith refused Adam and chose to be with Lucifer. So God took half of Adam and made Eve. As such, we are only half of the image of the Gods. In order to be in the image of God, as Adam was in the beginning, a man and a woman has to join together in equal measure. Such was my understanding, but, of course, not mentioned in the Bible.
I learn something new at least once every day of my life. But this video clarified old info and supplied so much new info with the context it deserves my cogs will be spinning til I fall asleep tonight. Thanks D!
To everyone who is wondering what the divine council is:
Psalm 82:1 God presides in the divine assembly
Psalm 138:1A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee
Psalm 82:6,7 I have said, Ye are gods;
Jeremiah 23:18 But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word?
Daniel 4:17 “’The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’
Psalm 89:5–7 says, “The heavens praise your wonders, LORD, your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones. For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings? In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.
Jer 23 22But if they had stood in my council,
Ps 89 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, And to be held in reverence by all those around Him.
1 kings 22 19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there
There are many more of those verses
Stir it up, Dan! It makes so much more sense this way. I might have had more faith in the church if they hadn't renegotiated the Bible so much.
Thank you Dan! This is what I have thought all along.
The question of where Cain got his wife from is, I believe, anwered by all of this. It makes sense to think that the other gods were also creating humans. Adam just happened to be the first.
It’s too bad Adam was such a klutz. If he and Chava would have moved a little faster this story would have been very different!
At least Dan acknowledges that more than one being/entity is being talked about here, unlike the Muslims, who claim it's just one.
But it's not three or more, it's two.
Taking into account the sum total of all the writings that constitute "the Bible", the two are identified as Jesus & the Father.
Are you seriously terminating this video without telling us who ELSE is in the "divine council"?? Let me guess, Ashrah??
Thank you.
And this my friends is why Evangelical Christianity poisons the water. The fundamental/literal misrepresentation of these texts are so grotesque.
They take the Hebrew Bible and insert jesus/Trinity/satan characters all throughout it.
Such a shame.
btw i like how dan has adopted " humanity " which gives no specification to how many humans are made . Its recognising that genesis 1 is the creation of categories not individual things
There are many places when a singular noun is present with a plural verb…..and a plural noun with a singular verb
The idea of "just look at the tense of the verb", this idea falls, when considering that the texts have gone through a number of edits, and none of the texts are univocal…..Genesis by itself is not univocal
Throughout scripture, if a group of people are in agreement, a singular verb is used, yet they are plural
As to why a plural verb gets coupled with a singular noun, I am at a loss……I would need to see each case, but I know it happens
update
i hate my unconscious
Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass when THE MAN (singular) commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were BORN TO THEM (plural).
i recognized this verse about a week ago, yet in my comment, I said that i was at a loss, because i couldn't remember this at all
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham were Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan
Mizraim was a single man, with a name that was plural. Consider also:
Genesis 10:13 And Mizraim begot the Ludim and the Anamim and the Lehabim and the Naphtuhim,
Genesis 10:14 And the Pathrusim and the Casluhim, from whom P'leesh'tiym emerged, and the Caphtorim.
These names are also plural, yet, they are individuals. Since they are individuals, hebrew would use a singular verb…..with a word that is clearly plural
That was the creation of "humanity". I would love to hear about the separate creation of Adam and Eve in Chapter 2 of Genesis.
Hello, I’m currently an agnostic but worried about apostasy being an unforgivable sin. Any insight on this.
Thank you, i was just thinking about this yesterday, love what you do!
I have seen this particular bit of Genesis used to show that the early Hebrews were not monotheists, and that their creation story shows them being created by more than one God.,and thus their cosmology has to answer the questions who were the other gods, what is their relation to YHVH and where did they all go since then
Yes, the use of "our" implies that it is plural. In this context, "our" suggests that there are multiple beings involved in the process of making humanity resemble themselves.
Can we get more information on Gods of the divine council? Or recommended reading to find out more?
Who are the gods of the divine council? Are they named? Are they the Caananite pantheon?
I'm reading Mauro Biglino's book, Gods of the Bible. He dedicates a lot of time on the word "Elohim". It's pretty fascinating.
Michael Heisner (sp) is a big proponent of the Divine Council, as well.
Dan, I am frankly bothered that you discount other possibilities and seem to offer the Latter Day Saints' interpretation of these passages as the correct one.
Regardless, this is a matter of 'how many angels might be able to dance on the head of a pin.' For Christianity, this is an unimportant matter that can only be left to guesswork and personal interpretation. We might as well say that this supposed council is a mystery, just as is the Trinity. Fine, but it gets us nowhere, except, I suspect, for members of the Church of the Latter Day Saints.
Of course, we can talk about a Monarchian monotheism, but this does not necessarily imply the existence of many gods, but instead a hierarchy of beings. (Principalities et cetera?) But does it matter? Do we know this truth? Do we really accept Genesis as the [i]literal[/i] word of God? Does this affect the Christian faithful?
The proof of the pudding, of course, is where do our suppositions lead us? What foundation have we built for ourselves? Is it sound in bring us to God?
Yes. Thank you. Ive been trying to convince people of this for years. Its not a royal "we/us" thing, it's not the trinity. Its a Council of beings, gods, deities.
If Judaism considered itself monotheistic by the days of the Dead Sea Scrolls (roughly Jesus's time), I am surprised that copiers of Genesis did not "correct" the plural references to be singular. Or maybe that was too large of a lift given that they would have to have deleted the divine council from the story (or perhaps just demoted all but one member?).
Dan, big fan of what you are doing. Data>Dogma. Evidence, Data, and Truth are what we should seek, no matter the source. Do you mainly focus on biblical history and try and always try to circle back to that with your research, (Study of Sumerian religion to help your better understand the Abrahamic religions) or do you have a broader interest in religion? (Study of connections between Siberian and Native American religious practices for a more holistic view of humanity and religion?)
Dan's description sounds very much like narrative story-telling, where we should instead often see symbolic liturgy.
What a load of crap!
Dan doesn't know who us is what all you need to do is read Genesis 1:1
God slapped humanity down for trying to become like gods 🤔
I like how Dan gets the make up whatever he wants without proof
That was fascinating. As a former Jehovah's Witness, your explanation had familiar elements, for example, the 'us' being Jesus in his pre earthly condition.
Now, as an atheist, I have a much broader view of the 'us' or council.
Lisa the rainbow giraffe loves YOU!
I have heard an argument from apologetics about a book written by a biblescholar saying that the trinity was established in the second temple period. Do you know what book i speak of? And why, i am assuming based on following you for a while, do you feel this is wrong?
Excellent 👍
Tertullian invented Trinity in 200ce +-
Only to reject it himself as idolatry..
Sounds a lot like the Anunnaki to me.
But in my opinion not a single text scribed throughout time is an accurate representation for our history.
The usual Christian reading is that the "divine council" are God's angels, not other Gods. At what point would this shift have occurred? The Torah DOES describe God traveling with angels, as when he visits Abraham, so when exactly did the writers/mythology come up with the idea of unnamed, generic angels as opposed to specific, named Gods?
Perfect explanation
Thanks!
Hello Dan. I just like to ask. What do you think of the account of Genesis chapters 1 to 3. Is it a literal creation in a sense it is the way how is the universe created and God created humanity in order to take care of the earth ( Let us say while still small population to take care of Eden ) and when population grow will take care of the whole earth. What about the conversation between Eve and the Serpent was it literal? Did it literally does something to Adam's humanity that affected our personality too when he ate with Eve?
Thankyou
Are there substantiative records for Lilith?
It’s my understanding that the divine council first created Adam and Lilith.
But, Lilith refused Adam and chose to be with Lucifer.
So God took half of Adam and made Eve.
As such, we are only half of the image of the Gods.
In order to be in the image of God, as Adam was in the beginning, a man and a woman has to join together in equal measure.
Such was my understanding, but, of course, not mentioned in the Bible.