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The book openly states that the weather is the reason why Araax couldn't out-fly Vhaegar.
There’s a lot to unpack with Luke, but it’s important to understand two major things:
– Aemond NEVER intended to kill him
– Aemond was quite literally the worst possible scenario Luke could have encountered, given that Aegon wasn’t going anywhere and either was Halaena (Aegon’s sister/wife).
So you have a situation where there’s a house (Baratheon) close by that is expected to auto-side with the blacks, and the ONLY possible threat Luke could encounter is IF the ONLY other dragon-rider available for the greens HAPPENS to be there when Luke is there.
The other important note here is that Aemond was there. The entire point of Luke being there – aside from handling such a serious matter face-to-face – was that they were on a clock, because they knew, based on what Otto had told them, that the greens were already sending ravens to the northern houses for support. There was no time to waste, and a raven or ship were too slow for what the blacks aimed to secure, as is evident by the fact that Aemond had already beaten them to it.
Another point you’re missing is that these were no longer “boys”. Luke was 14 – the same age as Rob Stark when he went to war. Luke was an accomplished rider, and had spent his life learning how to fight under the greatest swordsmen in all of Westeros up to that point. He was a much more capable threat than you’re giving him credit for. Aemond was only 5 years older than him, and just happened to have the biggest living dragon at his side.
So you have a situation where you’re on a clock, you have two sons who are both old enough to go to war and rule the kingdom if need be, both accomplished swordsmen, both accomplished dragon riders, and several places that need to be visited within a short period of time – one of which is a stones throw away from Dragonstone – and the ONLY perceivable threat possible is if the ONE dragon that’s active for the greens happens to intercept either of them.
So Rhaenyra sends Luke to the closest/quickest of the several kingdoms they need support from, under the assumption that it was a sure-thing that just needed verbal confirmation (and under the former Baratheon lord it would have been), and only through the most unfortunate circumstances would Luke actually be in any danger.
And even with all that, once again, Aemond never intended to kill Luke.
This isn’t even getting into the actual engagement with Borros Baratheon – who you suggested to send a raven to or someone else – when the man felt slighted for not “receiving anything” in exchange for his support. You really think a raven or different messenger would have been the solution for a man like that?
Every single black dragon-rider was doing something equally important, and once again they were on a clock to get it done. Daemon was working with Vermithor, one of the biggest dragons alive with no rider, Rhaenys was keeping the blockade secure – as it’s the most crucial piece to the black’s ability to siege, Jace had 3-4 other places to go (even though the show only mentioned 2), and Joffrey’s dragon, Tyraxes, had just grown large enough to ride for distance but not battle.
What ended up unfolding is the equivalent to hearing there’s a nationwide manhunt for a dangerous criminal, and sending your kid into a suburban gas station while you pump gas – not knowing that the criminal being televised is already in the gas station you just sent your kid into.
Extremely unlucky? Absolutely. A “narrative flaw with the writing?” Not even close.
As far as “the small dragon attacking the bigger dragon” confusion is concerned. Just get two random cats and throw them in a room together, and watch what happens. Now get two lions and run the same experiment.
A chihuahua will chase down a pitbull if you let it.
You’re talking about two predators with no competition at all, one of which is a seasoned dragon that has seen war, and the other has never come across a single thing that has threatened it in its life.
This isn’t “cats and dogs” – this is “great white shark and bigger great white shark”.
Ppl complaining about rheanys kill civilians doesn't make sense, in GOT universe there are no good or bad characters everyone can be either one or both, and also during medieval era royalty and nobilities dont give a fck about common folk they don't go to war for bcuz of some civilians being killed but they go to war if a royalty is killed.
You speak as if Meleys caused a 9/11 in the dragonpit. The deathtoll was probably only a few dozen with maybe a hundred injured, not thousands dead as you keep repeating.
1:41:29
in the books why dont you have the balls to wear real chainmail?
Ofc cos you already met a pack of dragons in real life
Rhaenys actually states that Lord Corlys is sailing for Dragonstone. It's at 22:10 in the episode, during the first discussion about their situation and allies. Rhaenyra asks Rhaenys about Driftmark.
Daemon is being sent to the Riverlands to negotiate with the Tullys.
I dont think that what Rhenys did at the end of Ep9 was bad. She isnt the leader of her house. As far as she knew, her husband was still alive. She would have set her house opposing the greens if she had killed them. that wasnt her choice to make. so she was maintaining her strategic ambiguity.
We know she could end a war but she doesnt know that. i really dont like when characters seem to do things cause they know the plot.
I still don't buy that the small dragon attacked. They could've landed and gone the other way and Aemond wouldn't have had a clue where they had gone. I still think it's a bit forced.
Many of your complaints come from you knowing more information that the characters do, and such makes some of your complaints not valid. That being of Otto willingness to kill the heirs, this is known to us the viewer, not the characters. We are all knowing most of the times, but the characters aren't.
Regarding your criticism of sending the princes, I think there's a lot of historical precedence for this, because they know they have to show their allies that they're serious and to show the highest amount of respect they can. The best way they have to do that is to send the heirs to the realm, as a sign saying "you are an important ally of ours, so important that we're sending the most important people we have to treat with you". If they'd just sent a raven or a envoy, those allies who were on the fence might have seen it as a slight, especially if the Hightowers sent their princes.
daemon would travel to storms end, hear the events an use his dragon to smell out the body..
Rhaenys is right not to burn them, and it seem that she saw Alicent in that situation as a caring mother; and come on people let's finally acknowledge two things : 1. Vyseris even though Paddy Considine portrayed him for Emmy award was either naive or stupid not to have Rhaenyra in the small council learning constantly, we must now believe that she learned how to be queen while she was maybe 3 times in 10 years on the small council meetings,from books or somehow, and they don't show us did she ever tried to build any relationship except for 20 years old oaths with houses of the realm. Other thing that is problematic is pace the show took, somehow creators are too sensitive to our criticism on one hand and on other hand some of people working on the show don't get that character can be caring step-father, father and bloodthirsty killer and that is GRRM's wiew that characters are capable for fair amounts of both good and evil, they can't make Daemon a villain when he is grey character and he will stay that way.
I disagree with this one point, Shad. Rhaenys did show restraint. she was going to be forced to submit to the usurpers or die/be imprisoned like the others. (the episode shows her seeing another lord of another house hung for disobedience.) the moment where she retrieved her dragon (with the help of the Kingsguard and Dragonkeepers who are known as being loyal to Dragonriders) away to burst through the floor on her dragon was the only option. It fits her character. She didn't kill the greens at that moment as it was not her war to begin. to kill a king (who half the realm see as legitemate due to his gender) in front of everyone as the first act of war (outside of the false crowning of Aegon) would paint a huge target on her and her whole family and holdings. It simply wasn't her place to fire that shot. She let everyone flee as much as she could before escaping to Dragonstone herself. It was literally her only option for safety, it was in character and it made sense. it didn't appear to me that she went out of her way to kill innocents. they were collateral damage, as always.
that's just how i saw it anyways, it doesn't quite happen this way in Fire and Blood, just to note.
Talking about the progressiveness of the people behind the show after this many episodes over and over even though at this point has nothing to do with the show and has been proven is just obnoxious and annoying and shows how much this clouds shads views
I choose to believe your wife is Arya Stark. She did a great job in this one.
Why is it assumed that all the people under the dragon in episode 9 died? The dragon is standing on legs it’s not a slug. You can be under a dragon and live
Maybe only 10-15 people got squished not “thousands”.
"Surely there are other exits [to the Dragonpit]!"
The books did say that the Dragonpit had tunnel exits that lead straight out of the hills, but their size is not described, since only the main doors "thirty knights wide" are mentioned. Although the place was designed with Balerion and Vhagar in mind, it's unclear how large they were at the time of construction, and it was explicitly stated pit dragons never grew as large as those two. It's conceivable that the hillside exits were too small for Meleys to use.
However, given the Fire & Blood lore, it may also be intentionally setting something up by establishing that the Dragonpit does not have alternative exits through the tunnels in this incarnation…
I think you’re forgetting the other Lords/Knights want war, why would they tell the Queen to give gifts? This is a boon to them, now they have war.
He reminds me of a white walker with that jewel in his eye.
I don't understand why Rhaenys coming through the floor bothers you so much Shad.
You called it "out of character." I ask "how so?"
Daemon is the only person in the whole show who has shown any care for the common folk. They don't care about the support of King's Landing. They care about the support of the other great houses. In fact, the casualties send a message: "This is what you get for bowing to an illegitimate king." She doesn't care about showing restraint toward the common people, but instead cares about the Targaryen dynasty and the preservation of the extended family.
Plus, the obvious possibility that she intended to kill the Greens but changed her mind once she sees Alicent protecting Aegon.
In my opinion is was a great show of power, especially because the blacks have more dragons and now that includes the red queen as well.
I think sending the princes was perfectly justifiable. They are "men grown, or close enough to make no difference". They need to be known and prove themselves (the show never made an issue out of it, but in the books it was really relevant that Jeoffrey didn't go out and fight at the battle of blackwater – as heirs, they need to be seen doing relevant stuff), and they have immense weight. Also they were sent off to people that are likely to join them (Stark is honorable, the Aryns are led by a woman as well – who would do well to support the Woman, so as not to have her cousins depose her as well, if the king deposed his elder sister, and Baratheon is related to them by blood – it was a miss that they didn't know the lord illiterate well enough to think he would be such an imbecile about this).
Also they are entitled to represent their mother, Rhaenis while relevant, is "distantly related" and Daemon's girls are even younger I think (and not related to the queen, just to the prince / king consort). Daemon was also sent somewhere else relevant. So baring Rhaenira herself, the 2 STRONG boys were the only choice to send.
Also, there was an issue of sending the dragons because they "fly faster" than ravens.
About the Cube Law, this criticism is still valid but instead of 8x slower—half might be a more accurate representation
There is also empty space inside the dragon which increases by the same factor
Also Vhagar being the “Strongest” dragon in the lore also would make it proportionally faster to its size compared to Luke’s Dragon
For the dragon to be able to fly there’s already something magic about its strength or biology, so I’d argue all three of those things mold with science to mitigate the issue Shad raises at the end of the video
To attempt to justify sending the princess to treat with Winterfell and Storm's End:
1. Despite the significant moves to consolidate power the Greens had already taken, sending Otto to Dragonstone with terms, and Rhaenyra's response (that she would consider them) indicates that the Greens are not yet committed to outright war, if for no other reason than that they wish to first consolidate their own power before striking. They committed acts of violence in King's Landing, but that was only to stabilize the city and consolidate power within what was to become their base of operations. The Greens have clearly demonstrated that they are not interested in fighting a war against the Blacks, as even with a victory, they will be devastated by the conflict. Further, if war must be fought, the Greens, like the Blacks, would want to ensure that the Stormlands and the North either support them or stay neutral. Having a disadvantage in terms of dragons (which the Greens are just as aware of as the Blacks), the Greens would want to ensure that their military/political strength is overwhelming. With the Velaryon navy behind Rhaenyra (which the Greens would likely take for granted given Rhaenys' actions and the familial relations with the Blacks) in addition to various other allies, the Greens desperately need the Starks and Baratheons. Killing Rhaenyra's sons and heirs would certainly start the war, and in all likelihood would do so prior to their having consolidated sufficient power as to guarantee victory. Thus, attacking either prince would not be in the Greens' best interest, as they are, at this stage, still interested in forestalling armed conflict, at least until they can be assured of victory. Though killing Rhaenyra's sons would be a blow to the Blacks, it would be more a symbolic/emotional blow than a military one, one which would sacrifice the time needed to prepare for war for the death of boys who are not likely to play a critical role in the fighting. In Fire and Blood, both Otto and Alicent Hightower are horrified that Aemond had killed Luc, and I would assume we'll see some of that in Season 2. The Greens don't want to kill Rhaenyra's sons while she and Daemon are holed up on Dragonstone, they want to kill her entire family all at once. Killing young boys on small dragons would do more harm to the Greens than it would good. Thus, Rhaenyra could have been confident that her sons would be reasonably safe because it is in the Greens' best interest not to start the (possibly inevitable) civil war just yet.
2. Even if the Greens cannot be trusted, the Baratheons and Starks can be. The Baratheons are notoriously volatile, and the Starks are incredibly honorable. Knowing that, as the Greens certainly do, it would be foolish to kill important emissaries sent to either of these Houses while attempting to court their favor. The Baratheons consider themselves the Blood of the Dragon, as the first Baratheon was allegedly the half-brother of Aegon the Conquerer. No lord of Storm's End is going to take kindly to anyone taking his loyalty for granted. He would insist on his right to hear both sides out, which the Greens would know fully well. Intercepting an emissary to House Baratheon would be seen as a serious insult, one which takes Baratheon support for granted and deprives them of their right to make an informed decision about who to support. This insult would, in all likelihood, drive the Stormlands towards the Blacks. This means that attacking the emissary to the Baratheons is a bad move by the Greens, and one they are unlikely to attempt. Further, the killing of a child is a tremendously dishonorable move, one which no Lord of Winterfell is likely to condone. Consider how Ned Stark resigned as Hand of the King when his best friend in the whole world, Robert, ordered the murder of Daenerys in a Game of Thrones. Thus, killing Jace on his way to treat with the Starks might convince the North that the Greens are dishonorable usurpers, and that the honorable thing to do is to march South and remove them. Thus, Rhaenyra can count on the potential displeasure of Houses Baratheon and Stark to act as a deterrent to the Greens.
3. Since Jace and Luc are both dragon-riders, and will have the protection of their hosts if they arrive safely, they only really need to fear other dragon-riders, who can assault them while in flight. The Greens only have 4 dragon-riders, all of whom are Alicent's children. It is extremely unlikely that Aegon or Helaena would be sent to intercept potential emissaries, as the newly crowned King and Queen (also, neither of them are competent warriors), and Daeron is in Oldtown, meaning that he could not have been sent, as such instructions would not have reached him (since the Greens were suppressing the flow information to maintain their tactical advantage). Thus, the ONLY possible dragon-rider who could be sent into the field at this moment by the Greens would be Aemond, riding Vhagar. Now, this is a bit of a problem for the Blacks, as Aemond not only has the most reason to dislike his nephews, having lost an eye to them, but also that Vhagar is the largest and most powerful living dragon. Thus, the threat of Aemond and Vhagar being sent against either or both of Rhaenyra's sons is a dire one, but may not have seemed all that likely beforehand (though it is what ultimately happened). It is important to note that a single dragon-rider cannot cover both Storm's End and Winterfell at the same time, thus rendering a dragon-blockade impossible. Further, if Aemond is sent as an emissary, he would be unable to kill his nephews while under a Great Lord's roof, lest he risk offending them. Thus, in order for Aemond to kill either of his nephews, he would have to do so in the air. Though Vhagar is much more powerful than either of his nephews' dragons, both of them are faster. Thus, if Jace and Luc were to turn tail and run from Vhagar in fair weather, they are unlikely to be harmed.
I think the above points show that even if sending her sons to treat with the Baratheons and Starks wasn't the best move (as later events would prove), Rhaenyra wasn't being so stupid as to create a plot hole. There was good reason for her to believe her sons were safe. The odds of one of them bumping into the only credible threat to them while on dragonback, then losing control of his dragon so that he could not flee on a younger and faster beast, are staggeringly low. That is what happened, but it was hardly so obvious that she should have seen it coming. Further, its important to understand that while Rhaenyra has matured some, she still is quite a reckless individual, who is currently dealing with grief over the death of her father and the loss of her unborn child and anger over her throne being usurped. Given that her best chance of victory is centered in the fact that the Blacks have more dragons than the Greens, it only makes sense that she'd attempt to use them early and often, counting on the Greens to deploy their dragons more cautiously, to protect their main bases of power. I think what she did in sending her sons out made sense, it's just tragic that it didn't work out for anyone's best interest.
I understand taking the dragon fire attack literally, and analyzing it literally, and I think there is some reason to. But also, dragons have metaphorical meaning as well. You can see both Luke's and Aemond's dragons as representing part of each of their subconscious. Dragons do literally have some kind of magical connection to their riders, they feel and think more like them the deeper their bond. They enact the riders rage, fear, etc. There is more to the dragons actions than just what they are doing as mere trained animals, and here I think although Luke consciously wanted to flee the whole time, part of him may have wanted to fight back, a part of him that the dragon felt as well, and after running the fear in Luke may have dissipated, and the dragon's action is an extension of what much of his mind wanted to do. Same goes with Aemond, part of him wanted to murder Luke, and although he intended absolutely not to do so, his dragon connected to the part of his subconscious that wanted to kill Luke.
Sending off the princes, I feel is justified. Hear me out.
With Jace, they are sending him to The North. There is no way anyone could get there as fast as him unless they were also on Dragonback. In this situation that would mean meeting one of Alicent's children. The Starks are known for their honor even in this time and I assume they would side with Rhaenyra.
With Luce, they are sending him to The Vale. Rhaenys's mother is Borros's 1st cousin. They believed that to be the safer option as they believed they could count on that connection.
About the Vhagar Problem. Vhagar is imo clearly powerful enough to roflstomp entire armies so whatever the Blacks did it would have ran the risk of running into Vhagar and Aemond. However, hindsight is 2020 and planning for a dragon that just so happens to be on the same continent as you to be as the same keep is very understandable to be looked over.
your wife shouldn't be camera-shy. It's kind of irritating this way. It's fine as a podcast, but it kinda failed as a video. Just a little feedback, no offense.
About Rheyny's decision not to kill Aegon and his people, I feel it's very reasonable. I don't think she killed thousands of citizens as she burst through the floor maybe about a hundred people died and these people don't matter. This show is about noble families and it's very clear in this world that the people that matter aren't common folk. You should also consider that these people are all family, they don't hate each other. History shows us that people often were reluctant to murder family or kill a king. Often exile was the preferred solution, at least in medieval European history.
Having Jace and Luc go off (Jace to the Eyrie and Winterfell, and Luc to Storm's End) is already established in Fire and Blood, as is the confrontation between Luc and Aemond and their dragons. It's the final nail in the coffin when it comes to Viserys' legacy of peace; we see this in Rhaenyra's expression in the close. She had been attempting to channel her father, but that was before her half-brother (as far as she's concerned/knows) murdered her son. This is such a central point in an already fairly established plotline that I don't see any way for the show to avoid it. Perhaps they could have set it up better, but I think there are implications that support the decision. Rhaenys has already been assigned to guard the Velaryon fleet, and Daemon cannot be trusted not to start some sort of war if he's sent off. Perhaps Baela should have gone with Luc, at least. Regardless, Luc's demise via Vhagar is the decisive moment, and it sets into motion a sequence of bloody and, quite frankly, vile events that spiral out of control.
Furthermore, Jace is to be King one day, and in a warrior's world such as Westeros, and during a time of imminent war at that, he needs to be more than an untested 'greenboy', as the saying goes in-universe. This is especially the case given that Rhaenyra is a woman and her consort is… controversial, to say the least. As such, he must be seen in a significant role, and directly conferring with the Defender of the Vale and Warden of the North is just that. Just as Robb had to personally lead the Northern army south at the age of fifteen when his father and sisters were imprisoned and his kin in Riverrun assailed, Rhaenyra's sons must become leaders. This logic applies to Luc as well, though to a somewhat lesser extent. They must prove themselves to the lords of realm, and also establish relationships with the lords who will one day be their vassals/allies. I agree that it's a risk Rhaenyra probably should not have taken at the time, but considering the world she's operating in and what she has available to her, it makes enough sense for me to accept it.
Also, I think there's a certain tragic irony that Rhaenyra, who used to be a hothead, is now the one attempting to hold the realm together in some form of peace during this episode whilst the Greens have plotted a palace coup and crowned one of theirs as King. Her restraint, as well as her sense of duty and even humility, shows that she has matured into a worthy successor to her father. She is everything Aegon the Elder is not, and one has to wonder how things would have turned out if not for the Greens' usurpation. Before the show, I used to think she was not all that much better than Aegon the Elder or Aemond One-Eyed or Daemon the Rogue Prince, but the last few episodes have changed my mind completely in this regard. Rhaenyra is without question the worthiest of Viserys' children to succeed him atop the Iron Throne, having demonstrated the virtues of Viserys without his indecisiveness. By contrast, Aegon is a whoremonger, Aemond is a creepy, grudge-holding psycho, and Helaena is… who she is. Daemon is clearly unfit as well. The only other one old enough to judge (Jace, and I view him favorably as well) is Rhaenyra's declared heir. Westeros would be in a much better position under first Rhaenyra and then Jacaerys Targaryen. I'm now fully on the side of the Blacks.
They did explain why she sent her kids, Jace is around the same age as the lord of winterfall, she thought they would hit it off, and Luc was sent to Baratheon because he would see it as a great honor to house a prince, and she thought they would both be safe as envoys. At this point there is no war, so… I think it was a safe assumption that nothing would happen.. since… neither side seems to want to go to war. Otto just offered peace terms.
I like this episode 8/10, but the last scene woke me out of the magic (-1). Without "The Watch" commentary that in the book the fight was seen from the ground, I could not squared who told. Also the commentary that in the book some of the decisions taken by male characters where transfer to female characters make it part political propaganda ( -1). Finally I think they rush the ending, easily the could have added one more episode and added those short little scenes the fight from the ground, the bride comment (book), the clutching of the message, the objections of the counsel, the recovery from the pregnancy's, the explanation of the prophecy to Damon, splitting the baby's funeral form the arrival of the messenger with the crown… little scenes that would have squeez a little more form a good season
Is a big Boing 747quicker or a small Cessna?
So Daemon's one daughter, Rhaena is without a dragon. Miiiight be prepping Vermithor to try bonding with her?
Aerodynamics is even more complicated than that … for instance, they have to hit the scale models with much higher airstream velocities than the full scale plane to get useful lift and resistance data. I won't even start on the reasons for this here. Arrax is little more than a scale-model to to Vhagar. Another aspect, the dragons do seem to have the same shape-related resistance factor at first glance, but that assumption still might not hold up under investigation. I am not sure you can reasonably make statements about dragon aerodynamics from a few fermi-problem calculations, as it were. Then there is the storm and how the situation changes with air pressure and cruise height. An aeronautical engineer or a fighter pilot surely have more to say about thi, but I'd personally just give it a pass, although I am a physicist.
It would be better if they showed Vhagar after Lucerys entered the castle. We would have the shock moment and it would be a complete suprise for Lucerys seeing Aemond inside.
Otto already told them when he went to meet with Rhaenyra, they they already sent out to Baratheons and Winterfell etc…
Shad I think you really missed the point of the coronation scene. It seemed clear to me she was making a statement, and she really did want to kill the monarchy right there for a moment but she stops herself. Her strampling the common folk was more a statement, her saying she was done playing games.
“It’s a nitpick, you can ignore it.”
“I will.”
Speaking for all of us there, Mrs. Shad!
Shad, what's the science behind white walkers? Dragons are magic, scorces of it or at least amplifiers. Get off it.
As for behavior of predatory animals, please watch the discovery channel or YouTube videos. Young males are often more aggressive and think they can take on larger prey than they can handle. Come off it.
You might know a bit about swords, but your knowledge past that seems incomplete.
https://youtu.be/diCMUHHnczA
Aemond Targaryen character design is one of the best in the Game of Thrones universe. Ewan Mitchell's acting was really good in "The Last Kingdom" and he fits the role of Aemond perfectly.
Rheanys will always be Queen to me.
Why shouldn't Rheanys be crazy? She thinks both her children died and then her husband leaves her for six years and then he is seriously hurt. That is a lot to deal with.
The TV adaptation has "defanged" a lot of characterizations from book it seems.