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say what you will about plot armour but I'm pretty sure had Horus just flat out killed the Emperor Terra would be sucked into the warp and the DA and UM would have had their fleets destroyed in the warp transit or arrived to find nothing (also the astronomicon would be barely functional if at all). We are talking an event nearly as significant as the birth of slaanesh during which time Eldar and human craft were destroyed so it stands to reason.
Ngl, the alternative plan doesn't make sense at all. You're going to get your reliable Legions to Terra faster by making them fight two extra campaigns along the way? The problem was just with fucking around for several years while the AL and WB held down multiple loyalist legions and the rest had their thumbs up their arses. While they're doing the 500 worlds, Chondax and Alaxxes, just push everything else at the palace as fast as you can.
What is the viability of a Luna Wolves army list? A sons of Horus list using things that the LW had before switch to the Sons of Horus
A lot of this seems out of date as of The End and The Death. We now know Horus didn't drop the Vengeful Spirit's shields because the loyalist reinforcements were coming, because they were never going to get there; as Terra had been subsumed with the Warp, time and space no longer worked properly, making Terra infinitely far away and requiring infinite time to get to. Killing the Emperor was the end play for Horus to attain godhood.
Ok so long post incoming.
Some friends and i did a recreation of the HH as a board game, and that prompted me to reread the whole (skiping some books) seires, up to the siege of Terra and i have been jotting down numbers and ideas from both the HH novels and the Blackbooks.
I really got hit hard that by the End of Warhawk, the Traitors must have signifigently less numbers than the Loyalists of Astates, even if they have a slight advantage in titans and ships + the "Endless hordes of mortals", Astates are the real factor for victory and that by the late siege we can bascily say that the VIII, XV (who where never on Terra in large numbers in the first place) must be less than 1'000 Astates in the whole galaxy each, the XVII are barely present in Battalion+ size formations on Terra and i doubt they have more than 30,000 Astates in the galaxy, its hard to imagine the III, XII have been doing much if any recuritment, so on top of losses; at Istvaan, 7 years of war, and the largest confilct in the Imperium's history both of those legions must be almost extinict and i would be suprised if either of them could pull together a single battalions worth of strength anywhere in the galaxy, then with the numbers of the XX being neblous and not largely present on Terra its hard to assume.
So that leaves only the IV, XIV and XVI, with the depature of 90%+ of the IV (the second largest traitor legion at the start of the siege) that only leaves the XVI who with heavy recuritment and some kind of flash cloneing it can be assumed they have just below the starting strength of the legion, which would only be 130,000-160,000 and by the events of warhawk that number is at least 40,000 if not more lower than its starting number.
Finally the XIV who where probs the second smallest starting traitor legion, and took fairly reserved casulties up until Warhawk, but after that book i would struggle to say they have more than 20,000 in the whole galaxy with like 95%+ of them being on Terra.
What i am getting at is this paints a really bleak picture of the Traitor forces, if you look at roughly 450,000 Traitor Astates + some 300 Titans both of these are a genrous number, with over half of that force being IV and XVI entering the solar system at the start of the solar war and less than 160,000 by the start of Echoes of Eternity (2/3rds of that being XVI), vs about 300,000 Loyalist Astates of the V VII and IX + Shattered Legion forces and about 200 Titans, and arriving at Echoes of Eternity at about 90,000 – 110,000 Marines.
This diffrence of forces becomes even worse if you look at leaders present by the late siege.
The Traitors have Horus (whos merely pretending to be retarted), Angron whos not actually doing any leading, Abbadon whos badly hurt and not really actually leading either, maybe some high ranking IV legion commanders who stayed behind, Typhus and thats about it, the "brain drain" has left them so crippled its not even funny. Compare that to 2 active Primarchs, the Emperor/Malcador, Valdor + almost the entire snr command staff of the VII and IX + the Custodians on the loyalist side with only slightly lower numbers and the greatest fortifications know to man it should have just been a stomp for the loyalists.
I really really wishthat the HH was not constrained by the 40k cannon, there would be so many less stupid choices (like sparing Konrad or f*ing Horus) and the Imperium would be in a much better state, i also just in general think it would have been a better story.
Flowing from this disapoinment, the same group of friends and i are rewiriting the Great Crusade and Heresy period from the ground up starting by changing the Primarch home worlds from the point of view of a historian at the end of the siege of Terra being asked to record a fair and unbiased record of the whole war and plaything though that in a board game format and recording the events which fold out, its been a blast so far. If you want any more details on that project i am happy to chat about it, its kind of my baby.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
PS on the numbers you gave for starting legion sizes i thought the Dark Angels had 200,000 before Rangda and by the time of the HH starting they had only just arrived at 150,000 inc the 30,000 on caliban. Where did you get the higher number from?
PPS Man BL is going to have to kill a fton of loyalists to make it to the cannon post scouring number of suriving Astates of only about 60,000 considering based off numbers provided there are 90,000 Astates on Terra (minus losses in the final month) and at least 100,000 each I and XIII Legion + the VI having more than 10,000 and around 10,000 XIX.
I have a few questions.
1: You take the alpha legion and put them up against the Ultramarines.
Okay well that would leave Corax alone and he would be able to field a much greater force, as the Alpha Legion wouldn´t be there to screw up his new pre-primaris space marines.
So potentially they could be at Terra too.
2: What about the Blood Angels?
While they where battered after the Signus campaign but if they manage to get to Terra Horsu would have face them too.
Though i might have screwed up the time line here.
I think Horus's pre-betrayal planning was pretty solid. The war opens up, has a little hiccup at Istvaan III, takes it back with Istvaan V, Prospero is a win, Calth is a win, everything is a win even if it's not like Calth levels of destruction. Where he drops the ball is not going right for Terra. If he went right for Terra with 8 traitor legions with the full support of Mars, in the early confusion before loyalties can solidify he would have won, but it needed to be done within the first year of the war, it should have been closer to a coup than as he famously would say "let the galaxy burn". He had legitimate grievances and concerns, with a quick capture or killing of the Emperor, more legions could have very well joined him such as the White Scars and maybe the Space Wolves. Instead he dragged the war out, seemingly intentionally for some reason to destroy assets he would have needed post war to rebuild the Imperium and solidify his rule and the more reliant he became on daemons than his own marines and mortal forces in the end is what saw him undone. It was just a colossal waste of time, which funny enough is similar as to how daemons of the ruinstorm play.
Most of these failings are down to writers being good for other Primarchs and bad for him. First 3 books solidified his reputation and why he was so beloved, but other books to come would overshadow his achievements and make him out to be a glory hound rather than the competent commander they needed to portray him as
Remember that Horus and the traitors are only stupid because the authors wrote them that way.
It's worth noting that in the siege series Sanguinius asks Malcador pretty much that exact question. "Why doesn't Horus just destroy Terra from orbit?" And Malcador tells him that the chaos gods are essentially compelling Horus to have to fight Big E in person.
Now this video was fantastic! Great breakdown on Horus as a general and the forces that he commanded. I made a comment the other day on the Primarch generals video, and I know that this video directly addresses the comment. You make again a lot of points here, although the reason I still consider his war somewhat of a pyrric success is because of what it did to the imperium and humanity as a whole, and how they were able to destroy so much of the galaxy and in such a short time frame. For over 200 years the galaxy was being reconquered in the name of the imperium. It took them 13 years to destroy almost all of what was made, and over 10,000 fucking years later the imperium is still unstable, it is rebuilding extremely slowly and the traitors have been taking massive victories over the last few years despite GWs awful writing. The legions he used were not the best but he knows that, beggars cannot be choosers in this scenario. He obviously the the Lion, Sanguinius, Dorn, Guilliman and especially Corax would never turn their back on the emperor. However, Horus was responsible for the destruction of 3 full loyalist legions, that never recovered from the Istvaan V incident. As for Abaddon, anyone with a brain and who's actually read the recent books and not just looked on reddit or wikipedia knows that he is not the failure of everyone makes him out to be. To start, he killed Sigismund, it was not plot armor or age either, you guys can't handle that Sigusmund got fucking annihilated in a 1 on 1 fight. Do not take Iskander Khayons quote of "age slowed him to the same level as us" to heart, space marines do not fight like shit or slow down after they age. For over 10,000 years, hundreds of thousands (I don't know how they are still alive) of chaos space marines from the original war are still butchering their way through the galaxy at the same lebel of skill if not more than they did back on Istvaan V. The Old meme of him being a terrible villan has been beaten to the ground too many times. While GW sucks at fucking writing, and cannot allow anyone with a current primaris model to die, and he has not killed the emperor, look what he’s done to the galaxy. Daemons are consuming the galaxy, the traitors are once again at full strength, and the galaxy is torn in Twain with infintley more causualies and planets under traitor and chaos control than even during the heresy. Horus was warmaster for what, 50 years? Abaddon has been Warmaster for over 10,000 years and inflicted twice, if not three times the losses. However, theres a lot more both negative and positve to be said, because I ackowadge the terrible writing of his character in some of the books, same goes for a ton of other characters in the lore. But that’s another discussion for another time, this was excellent content like usual! When looking at the other primarchs, He was not as good of a general as say the lion or guilliman, however his clout was able to persuade 7 legions to completely fall to chaos and causing humanity to be in endless turmoil when they were so close to utopia has to be remembered.
All horus had to do was wait longer to play his hand let the legions get further away from Terra and let the angel of death out and let big e finish his project first then he will come out to put the angel of death back in his place then you kill him.
Mucho texto
Horus = CHAD
Macca = Sojak
heh
This video is a good way of showing how the GW writers seem to have little understanding of actual military history or tactics. Some basic research into that would have kept the Heresy novels more grounded, along with not turning it into a sprawling 60 books.
Horus's plan relied heavily on a bunch of surprise first strikes and was failing spectacularly from the start: Garro, Calth, Kabandha, escaped Shattered legions, etc.
I understand your points about the alpha legion and don't disagree. But alpharius did provide defensive plans for the solar system, and did they not subjugate an entire segmentum intact by telling them horus had already won.
I still think you're reading too much into what is essentially a jobber and his crew of fellow jobbers. It's the issue of the HH coming after 40k was already established. At the end of the day, Horus and the traitors are there to get kicked by the noble and glorious good guy loyalists, and that is what most of the readers seem to like. Not a war of peers, but noble knights cutting down unwashed and evil masses. Also didn't other sources say WB were 200,000?
Whopping some heretics @ss right onto the ground
The thing about genre IP novels is that they're about the quality of a CBS drama. Whether that means you think they're great and love them, or think they're God awful and don't understand how anyone can read them, they're still about the same quality.
Horus: "Do as I tell thee, brother, for I am Warmaster"
Corax: "Fuck thyself, for thou art an incompetent"
If you didn't love the lore I couldn't even recommend these books. Some are just outright terrible writing, most are average to poor.
My argument would be the fact Horus chose chaos and his brothers as well. The set plans were made perfectly before the true corruption of his brothers. After they became deamon princes and became unweildable except as bludgeons with no tactics, even his own legion. Terra became fortified and it was a slog rather than an immediate win. Turns out chaos doesnt organize very well. I dont see it as bad writing, i'd argue the only bad writing is when it makes no sense and wastes the audiences time with side stories that lead no where. Cool to see so many extra sides but kinda just a waste of time.
This may just be me trying to piece together decades of poorly considered lore, but I've always thought that Horus was set up. You can certainly read his poor decisions as bad writing or his ineptitude, but it can also be seen as an enormous conspiracy by the Emperor. I think that when Horus and Erebus/not-Sejanus saw the Emperor in that little time warp during his magical coma (Book 2?), the Emperor realized that his original plan was foiled and decided to improvise. He decided to stage the Heresy in an effort to create a ritual to grant himself godly powers. The Siege of Terra novels refer to the Emperor being betrayed over and over, and growing stronger each time. It stands to reason that someone so intimately comfortable with sorcery would see the opportunity to exploit one of the oldest stories of all time (son betraying father) to catapult himself to godhood.
If that is the case, basically everything Horus and the Emperor do makes sense. The Emperor made sure to find Horus first and gave him a lot of attention to make him feel special, then set him up with easy battles to grow his legend. He knew that Horus represented his ambition (without basically any mitigating qualities) and would be easily convinced of his own exceptionalism. Horus was the only one of the primarchs who would possibly believe that they might know better and be able to defeat the Emperor, so he was chosen to be the fall guy. The Emperor would have then deliberately alienated specific primarchs in order to make sure that they would side with Horus, because even Horus was not crazy enough to try the whole thing without allies.
That'll always be my interpretation, no matter what the writers decide. It just fits too well. It explains why the Emperor was so horrible to many of the primarchs, why he didn't see having a son named MORTARION or ANGRON as being Chaos bait (and why he didn't shoot Magnus and Lorgar on sight), how he missed the signs of Chaos interference despite being "older" than the gods, and why he seems so emotionally retarded, despite being a 40,000 year old hyper-empath psyker-god soul-amalgam nightmare. It also explains why Horus was in so far over his head and spent so much effort trying to prove his worthiness with Dark Compliance. He was supposed to fail and was manipulated for centuries to carry out his role.
Chaos corrupts and addles the mind, so it only makes sense that a traitors strategic value diminished quickly after the fall.
My takeaway is that when pulpy Scifi authors tell you their character is a superhuman being with intelligence beyond mortal understanding, you're just going to have to take their word for it. They don't care about the details and they're not expecting their audience to either.
Honestly, this kind of poor writing of the traitor primarchs is why I lost interest in the HH.
Remember Horus doesn't have to be a good general – he just needs to be better than what the writers depicting Rogal Dorn and the Emperor can come up with.
12:55 Pretty sure Perturabo said yeah-nah after it became clear horus intended to just demon spam his way to victory. Something along the lines of 'this is no longer a contest of legions'. That being said, i did pick that up from one of the siege of terra novels, which have given us such classics as Neoth and Erda, so id hardly be surprised if it was all a retcon.
He was used by Chaos to cripple The Emperor, they never cared about his intentions. In that he did alright.
One interesting problem is, as you say, that Horus was saddled with the B-team, and that B-team is the B-team because their tragic flaws take over their characterization and make them incompetent. Instead of the Imperium being attacked by nine Darth Vaders, it invaded by three Vaders and six Kylo Rens.
How dare Horus make such a blunder like not sending 4 legions to disrupt 1 legion locked behind a warp storm? Didnt he know the Blood Angels and Dark Angel's got stuck there too. What is he stupid?
I have to disagree here. I feel like you cherry pick too much and expect too much, and your numbers are wrong too. Word Bearers for example we’re still there in Terra when the Emperor and Horus fought. Same goes for Death Guard and World Eaters.
You for some reason want Horus to be some idiot who just stumbled towards the inevitable, but he completely outplayed the loyalists and had basically won but decided to end the emperor in vengeful spirit instead of the inner sanctum.
Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Ultramarines were delayed. BA got through to Terra but was butchered. UM and DA were unable to find terra at all. White Scars got back due to Alpharius wanting to deplete the traitors. IH, Sallies and Raven Guard got wiped and then fought peacemeal battles that didn’t affect the big picture all that much. Space Wolves in the end wasted their strength in Trisolian, were isolated and almost wiped out.
Curze held DA back and had a good chance of doing so even longer, had the white scar traitors turned coat. Lorgar and Angron fought a strategic victory by delaying and reducing the UMs in Ultramar. Perty beat Dorn handily in the solar war and Mortarion broke through the inner palace. Horus won practically every battle he commanded. He still had overwhelming force and plenty of bodies to throw at Terra in the end.
In addition, the traitors started out in a relatively weak position and were racing against time until they sunk Terra into the warp, at which point the tables turned, and now the loyalists were running out of time. The traitors needed to get to Terra fast due to material disadvantage, which began to turn after the opening moves.
I just want to say, that you might be missing the big picture here a bit. If the traitors had begun to destroy loyalist legions one at a time, they would have had to dig them out, which could have taken decades. At that point, some legions such as IF could have hundreds of thousands of new recruits due to solar gene labs, and the traitors would have devolved even further. That would have also left Kelbor Hal and the Dark Mechanicum in a bad position to say the least. Then there’s the emperor, who was distracted, but for how long? The war was never against the loyalist legions but against the emperor.
Good video explaining how Horus lost the war.
I feel like its just all bad writing for the traitors horus was stated to be the best of us by everyone and dropped the ball through out the heresy. Angron is a whinny child that readers only feel pity and contempt for. Fulgrim they couldnt figure put what to do with him in the heresy so they screwed him off with the excuse hes just doing selfish stuff. They made conrad a pitiful dreg that is mental so your supposed to feel bad for i guess? Lorgar has stockholm syndrome and is a self serving little prick, pertuabo was written by idiots that couldnt even decide on a personality so read a book decide if you like him and if you dont read another till you find the pertuabo you like, alpharius omegon are wrotten to be maybe loyal maybe traitor so that maybe dark angels are loyal maybe their traitor so theres equal legions which is the most window licking paint chip eating idea ive ever heard, magnus is written like a condescending cock prick who when he gets introuble gets all wishy washy till he has no hope pf victory decides change his mind and fight like an idiot against his strengths like he wanted to lose then gets butt hurt , im not sure what to say about mortarion other than spoilers he fight the khan to a stand still and then loses when his powered up, its like when the primarchs become demon primarchs instead of it being a buff its a debuff and some how loyalist plot armor keeps them winning with the power of love and friendship or something dumb like that at no point after istvan 5 do the traitors seem like they are winning or have a chance of winning in my opinion its just crap writing traitors never had a chance of winning is what it felt like the whole time.
The way Horus started the heresy is a whole strategic disaster of its own. In part because the game and narrative is very military and battle centric – when you only know a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. And in the end we play battle game. Though I love the series and it’s concepts and ideas, but zoom out and it is a very stupid move to start the heresy far away, with the allies he did and to burn half of your own forces and resources to start with. His actual real advantages should have been to stir up discontent and keep the human realm from polarising into two factions but slowly force it into fracturing into many sides and secretly keep your own as the biggest. But hé, so a very simplistic story it got a lot going for it😇
I need to find your dissing of Dorn, the Mary Sueiest character in the setting.
The obvious rebuttal is that Horus is meant to be a great character, but is written by less than great authors. A non-genius cannot properly write the actions of a genius, other than to say "Horus did some genius battle stuff and won!"
In “The Lost and the Damned” Malcador explains why Horus isn’t fighting a conventional war. As this war is being fought on the Immaterial and Material plains, Horus bee lines it to Terra and fights a costly ground war essentially because it empowers the chaos gods to do so. He’s being manipulated and controlled to do their bidding without even knowing it. Not to mention Horus never really got his choice in allies since the most competent Primarchs were also the most loyal. Though I’d say Horus was never the most strategic of his brothers, at least when he was a loyalist he had full unclouded faculties to make his bad decisions.
Part of it can be explained by the Gods, but really too many writers not being on the same page as well as not being very competent in war lends Horus to looking like a dunce. It’s a shame too because the big baddie of the setting is kind of a fool when Horus always should have been the most dangerous of his brothers.
I did always wonder what Horus' plan for dealing with E Money was. Winning the war was one thing, but how did he plan to get rid of our Glorious Gilded God?