If you like MMO beat ’em ups with a 2D retro style, check out Dungeon Fighter Online: https://www.dfoneople.com/pr/dfo_info_2207/2312_Skallagrim
Exceptionally realistic games can be exceptionally tedious, but there are also plenty of examples where *elements* of realism add something enjoyable to the experience. Also it’s good to keep in mind that this is not an all-or-nothing kind of deal… realism is more like a sliding scale.
Gabe Newell has some interesting points to make about what is fun in video games, and I agree with most of what he says. However, I felt like adding a few thoughts to the discussion, particularly since he also ended up giving examples of how realistic feedback in the game can feel rewarding.
At the same time developers should not be too pre-occupied with making games more realistic. In some cases it can absolutely be detrimental, and some of the best games of all time are not high on the realism scale (like good old Castlevania Symphony of the Night, platformers in general, boomer shooters like Doom, or just about any JRPG).
Since I bring up Project Zomboid as a good example of a complex, realistic sandbox game I showed a short clip from one of Nurse’s videos. If you like PZ definitely check out her highly entertaining work:
https://www.youtube.com/@NurseVO/videos
The TMNT game I show as an example of how excellent animations and impactful sounds can enhance the gaming experience is also well worth recommending if you’re into retro style beat ’em ups.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1361510/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_Shredders_Revenge/
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Outro:
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https://theslantedroom.github.io/steve.yee/
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#skallagrim #gaming #realism #response #reaction #valve #halflife
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Risking being a little off topic but this discussion reminds me of the topic of dealing with sci-fi hardness. It was discussed on Writing Excuses at some point. The internal consitency was key to not ruin immersion in the story, regardless of hardness of the science. The other trick was to show some aspects of the world in great detail and the rest of the worldbuilding is carried by the assumption that the author worked out all the details elsewhere with same care. And simple rule for hard scifi that allowed only one break in physics (Epstein drives in the Expanse or wormhole gates in John Lumpkin's books) to enable the rest of the plot.
It also just depends on what mood you're in. I love being able to search through every drawer and cupboard for loot in Red Dead 2. I also love slamming an oversized sword into the ground that causes an explosion that knocks 100 people into the air and sets them on fire in Dynasty Warriors. There's nothing wrong with liking both of these things.
Realism isn't fun, consistency is fun, believability (I get feeling when talking to other this is what they real mean by realistic) also helps as well, not as important as consistency. Inconsistency quickly sucks fun out of video games. Set your games universes rule and follow it.
I think really what he was trying to saw was it’s no good when peoples idea of relies on gets in the way of a fun or even just cool idea like for example sliding in COD you used to be able to slide hafe way across the map and it was great now it’s more realistic with a dead stop almost.
I think Red Dead Redemption 2 is a great example of how realism can be a double edged sword. That game is very polarising in that many people love how realistic its mechanics are but many people also hate how slow and tedious those same mechanics make the game feel.
When you actually talk to most gamers about realism in games you realize what they really mean is it believability.
Damn Gabe is aging well, looks pretty cool, kind of the grandfather of gaming in a sense lmao Also it's weird how people are telling how others should enjoy games, like bro just have your own fun.
I don't think Gabe was bashing realism, he was just saying it shouldn't be the only metric by which a game or media is measured.
Half life 3 is Alyx. You own an Index dont you? So why are you asking?
Half of weight of Gaben and a quaer of the man Gaben is!
Pffff!
I think the biggest issue with "realism" in video games is that nobody seems to know what's actually realistic. I'm sorry, guys, but crowbars just don't break that easily when you're hitting people with them. Nor do you need to eat 20 steaks a day to keep from starving to death.
You know what's not fun? Trying to put some poor guy in jail for decades over a fucking video game. Fuck Newell.
… Ads for an online casinos aimed at kids? I had better opinion of you.
Basicaly impact is fun, and thigs having impact feels realistic in some degree. But Gabe is right — realism != fun.
Clearly, these people are oblivious at how successful life simulators are. The Sims is a billionaire franchise that has its players raging when features like laundry are missing.
we need skall to stream about this topic, also he has lately been absolutely absolutely nailing it with his recent videos. Also with the second channel aswell
I think from a game developer's perspective adding realism should always coincide with adding positive gameplay functionality or visual aesthetic. Otherwise you're wasting time. The big message from players should be that when something fun added to the game is also realistic to the game/reality then we like it even more.
The way I like to escape reality is by pretending I can time travel, by becoming a commander of a medieval or antic army, which is why I love total wars (And that is also why I seem to be the only person on earth who loves TW thrones of Brittania) and bannerlord, or by pretending I time travel to live in 15th century bohemia, which is why I love Kingdom come. If my escapism is time travel fantasy, wouldn't it make sense that I'd prefer games to be more realistic ? (I know the games I quoted are not 100% realistic, but at least they make me feel like they are, and I enjoy them a lot more than "beat them all" types of games where your character is insanely overpowered)
It's more often about international consistency, than about the level of realism. If a particular fire flower suddenly gave Mario a +2 charisma, instead of fire powder, it would make people mad.
You did not really define what Realism is, I think, and this makes it a bit hard to see the whole back and forth here. For my part, I think that Super Mario Bros isn't realist because no matter how much gravity you've got in that game… Mario can still jump five to six times his height. It's embellished realism to a high degree. And in my opinion that shouldn't count as realism to way a lot of people might perceive it.
Is Dual wielding maces in game realistic? No. But is it hella fun? ABSOFUC*INGLUTLY. But do I want to feel maces realisticly hit enemies? Also kinda yes.
I… I think that's what he said too, that realism is not the single metric for fun and then went on to explain ways in which realism can add to a game's fun and feel
All the little details add up in red dead redemption 2. Taking one specific detail away won’t change much, but the combination of all the little details is why the world is so engaging.
Allow me to suggest that what many people want isn't more realism, it's to be less unrealistic. When something that I am reasonably familiar with in real life doesn't work right in the game, and that distracts or confuses me, I find the level of unrealism annoying. Bad or restricted dialogue options, which takes me out of the game. Being unable to climb, or swim, which limits my choices. Being able to modify one part of a weapon, but not others. Wound and healing mechanics that just confuse me. I want a game that allows me to interact with it seamlessly and without having to think about it too much. The more I can rely on my real-world knowledge without having to slow down and think about how the game universe works, the better. But you have to include those realistic elements without making the game more complicated to interact with, because that defeats the whole purpose of "Realism". And that's hard to design.
i think a lot of people treat realism and suspension of disbelief as the same thing when they are frequently different things
I agree with all but 2 things in this video: I'll sacrifice any amount of realism if it lets me invade a poorly-defended town with a huge legion of flaming pigs. Also, horse poo > no horse poo. That said, RDR2 is definitely more realistic than fun as far as I'm concerned – I find it impressive (especially on a silly-spec PC) but honestly not that enjoyable.
Its funny he mentions walls and Narsicistic injuries, because I felt the exact same way when Halflife 2 didnt let me pick up corpses, not even with the Grav Gun. I felt personally wounded that this mystical zero point energy tool just… couldnt pick up bodies? But it can push around a 700+ pound suped up go cart? Or lift several hundred pound dumpsters? Like what?
Most of the gamers I know, like the less realistic games, but there's a reason why so many gamers know about Escape From Tarkov, or Ready or Not, for example, and why so many (including me) play them.
Well, Half-Life Alyx IS Half-Life 3, technically.
Re: Rome Total War- several Roman Emperors actually tried to incorporate gladiators into the Roman army. From what I remember it wasn't generally very successful as gladiatorial skills didn't necessarily translate very well into battlefield effectiveness, and slaves coerced into fighting didn't always make the most loyal or motivated soldiers. Ex-gladiators were highly-prized as bodyguards for important people as well.
Also I believe that the flaming pigs were more of an over-extrapolation from an improbable historical anecdote than an outright fabrication. Regardless, neither unit was particularly useful or OP in Rome 1, and weren't recruited by AI opponents very often, so you could easily avoid encountering them most of the time if they broke the immersion too much. I'd say they had just enough historical basis to warrant inclusion as a fun novelty you could choose to ignore if you didn't like them.
The British head-throwers were harder to justify, though- they were easily one of Britannia's best units as well as their silliest.
I see that "It's a fantasy world so why does X have to be realistic" being used all the time in movies, TV shows, video games and the criticisms of the same. Sure, you can do anything, but if the game is going for atmosphere and immersion then everything has to fit the theme. It has to make some kind of in-world sense or at least match audience expectations. You can't just go, "Somehow he survived" and expect that to be enough.
That'll do, youtuber. That'll do.
So, it depends. On context. It's weird on how often that's the answer.
i personally find fun in behaving more realistically than most other people would when playing videogames. like right now im playing watchdogs legion but im walking everywhere unless i can hail a taxi, then ill set it to autodriving as the in world lore says is the legal way to drive LOL. unless the circumstance calls for me to run/steal/etc, its kinda a thing that i got used to doing after a while, and i get to appreceate the world more.
I’m really interested to hear your thoughts on the 3000 year old Bronze Age sword they found in Germany. Looks pretty unique especially with the design of the pommel.
Remember healing in Metal Gear Solid 3? That's a thing I hope Delta fixes.
Having realistic elements to built the rules of the game is not the same thing as *realism*. I think the point Gabe was essentially making is that gamers on the whole don't like games where the sole selling point is "its realism". I'd say the vast majority of those who do go down the whole "the most realistic" route tend to be marketed at a niche group of loyal players – I am thinking of the various combat, driving and flight simulations. <— I suppose the key word there is "simulation".
Realism only makes game less fun if you're a casul.
Precisely. My biggest gripe with Spacemarines was, that you could fire a plasma cannon that fires stellar temp explosive bubbles of plasma, and there was ZERO destructible environment. Huge missed opportunity and immersion breaking for that game, imho. It just makes no sense for that setting.
The key is verisimilitude, not 'realism'.