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There’s a huge misconception about the rules of Mak’Gora in the WoW community. Using magic isn’t considered cheating. You’re allowed to use only the weapon/means you start the fight with, you cannot pull out another weapon, start using magic after fighting melee etc. You also can’t pick up a weapon you dropped during the fight. Saurfang didn’t pick up the axe after dropping it, the same happened in the fight between Garrosh and Thrall.
Victory for Sylvanas!
Ship exploded, because there were bombs planted by 'spies'. The gnom used that device to trigger them.
Knaifu comes from that dagger being a living being and the first time it was shown with a living body it was that of a female elf (what's very likely not its real body, though).
It was Saurfang saying it to Thrall first, as he calls him back to the horde ("We don't get to hide"), was Thrall was hiding back in the last remains of a dying world instead of leadin the horde as a war chief.
Saurfand then brings it up again when it comes to duell with Sylvanas (she per se only accepted because it overall didn't matter at all, she almost had all the life force she and the Death God Zovaal needed for their plans, the main reason why she left, else she would have have ignored Saurfand and let the bloody war continue).
Anduin in the latest cinematic, many years later, hiding away from his responsibility a the king of the alliance, just as Thrall hid from his responsibility as a war chief, mocks these words as too simple – and per se would be right, since he got a real reason to doubt himself, while Thrall never had, especially not because the Alliance had some more people who could lead it, while the Horde was always more chaotic and less strutured – by being 'a horde', so if one of the few guys with smarts just leaves and leave it to others, that's quite the gamble, especially with a group that is more focussed on strength than intelligence.
Varean was split in 2 by a black dragoness called Onixian. The 2 Varean were then gifted a pair of elven blades, originally own by twins, for the final battle with her. During the battle a blast from here caused both the Varean to merge into one along with the blades forming Sharlemane.
Until the Sourerfang's and Silvanus's duel only Varean was able to separate the blades back into their independent halves. The blades separating is something that can only be done if the blades deams the welder worthy. Sourerfang is only the second person to be able to do so.
😢 wish I didn't have to work when your on 😢
Honestly, Saurfang was done a little dirty here, he always was the biggest warrior of the Horde, even during the times of Garrosh and even Grommash Hellscream, Horde has a lot of warriors, but none of them ever came close to what Varok Saurfang could do in terms of pure strength and combat ability, Saurfang literally invented Whirlwind, He could literally cleave through hordes of enemies with a single swing, he was always probably the most accurate WARRIOR in Warcraft lore and extremely similar to what player character warriors can do, while other lore characters aren't even close to that level.
I'll never forget that Quest in Wotlk where you see him literally going against hordes of undead alone and actually winning. xD
He was a legend, a true soldier, no need for magic, no need for rage and anger, just an axe, honor and pure strength.
@PhilipHarts You should definitely read the Sylvanas novel if you are interested in how she got the powers and all her background story. But just read it after watching the shadowlands story unfold to not spoil it. Also there is an audiobook version narrated by the voice actor herself.
"is he the bomb this time!?" is my most favourite single voice acting moment in any cinematic for Warcraft. The emotion behind it, both the event of Theramore and it being her brother. Laura Bailey smashed it.
Not to be too harsh, cause I do find you to be a really awesome dude. But your talk about Asmon with the chat gave me a bad taste. Yes there are controversial creators and people everywhere, but if you want to be better than them, don't go to the extend of bashing them like that then, be better. I'm not the biggest fan of Asmon myself either, but I felt hurt about the "not cleaning" talk and especially the use of "Degenerates" associated with it. Not everyone has the drive to fix stuff like that, nor the money to get help fixing it, me included… and I'm really putting myself out here now by saying this, but I just really hope you can stay away from all this "right and wrong drama". Imo, throwing dirt like that will usually hit more than your intended target. Besides that, I love your energy and content, sadly you mostly stream a little too late for me to be able to watch live, but I would love to at some point if the possibility present itself. Keep up the good work 😀
During the "Unexpected Reunion" cinematic, people failed to mention that Baine Bloodhoof is the reason why Jaina survived the bombing of Theramore. They had been fighting for weeks, and Garrosh tried to keep the plan to bomb it a secret. Baine got wind of it and sent a scout to warn her in advance. She did all she could, but people still died.
Also, no one quite mentioned it in the stream, but N'zoth was imprisoned, by the Titans because they found out after they killed another one of the Old Gods, Y'shaarj, that if you kill them, you actually help destroy the planet, because they're void parasites. The Titans imprisoned them so that they couldn't destroy the planet; so they had to find a way to destroy it from their prisons. Deathwing, Azshara, The Titan Keepers, anything.
Saurfang died for our sins
TL;DR – The use of magic during a Mak'gora is NOT CHEATING unless the participants specifically agree not to use magic
4:04:28 – Every Mak'Gora that we've seen in game has NOT involved any cheating, even though that is a very common misconception that is spread around. The rules of each Mak'Gora are set out by the participants beforehand, and in both the Thrall / Garrosh and Saurfang / Sylvanas Mak'gora, they don't specify that the use of magic is forbidden. Because they didn't specify that using magic was against the rules, it was 100% not cheating to use it.
From the Wiki: "The rules of a Mak'gora seem to be different between each Mak'gora since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves. Generally, there are thus no specific rules. There are only two consistent themes in all Mak'gora: once dropped, a weapon cannot be retrieved by either opponent and that the pair must fight to the death or until submission. Magic, for example, has never been stated to be forbidden, and has, in fact, been used in multiple Mak'gora duels and thus seems to be permitted. Similarly, many Mak'gora duels have involved both fighters wearing body armor as well, but it can also be forbidden when explicitly required.
– A popular misconception among the fanbase is that Thrall cheated in his final mak'gora against Garrosh when he used elemental magic. However, there has never been any rule forbidding the use of magic and spells. Moreover, there is a precedent for the use of magic in mak'gora, as both Shagara and Ashra made extensive use of it during their mak'gora. Thrall had also already used magic in the first mak'gora between him and Garrosh, by throwing lightning bolts.
– Another popular misconception is that Thrall became a weaker shaman as a result of killing Garrosh with elemental magic. In reality, it was his tremendous guilt, self-doubt and internal struggle that were the reason for him not hearing the elements anymore"
I think the misconception came about entirely because of the Warcraft movie, in which we see Gul'dan use magic during a Mak'gora and is accused of cheating by the onlookers, despite magic not being forbidden beforehand. But the movie is non-cannon, so shouldn't be confused with the game's lore
For everyone who says Sylvanas cheated during reckoning: She didn't and yall don't know ya WoW lore.
Mak'Gora has NO rules unless decided before the match, as neither agreed (or even brought up) to not use magic, it was not against the rules, to wit Sylvanas did not cheat.
My perspective on why the rest of the Horde pulled along with the world war:
Sylvanas convinced the Horde-general and warhero Saurfang by painting a gloom picture of the future with the past.
"Alliance and Horde might be at peace now. But what in one year? In ten years? In one hundred?" (This is said to a PTSD-Veteran who during his darkest times slaughtered children. The safety of the future generation is very important to him.)
"The Alliance is filled with people that want the Horde destroyed. Genn Greymane violated the armistice during the Legion's attack and what did the Boy-King do? Genn barely got a slap on the wrist."
"This new ressource, Azerite, is dangerous like nothing we have ever seen. The Alliance could wipe us from the face of the earth if they use it before we do. But it is also a chance. If we strike now, we can capture Teldrassil and take the Night Elves hostage. This will cause the Alliance to squabble internally and eventually fall apart."
With Saurfang (reluctantly) on board, even the more honorable members of the Horde would not protest such a plan.
Then Teldrassil burned.
As Saurfang said: "There was no honor in this. They will come for us now, all of them."
There are certainly those in the horde who feel glee in the suffering of the Alliance.
But now, even the honorable Horde-member will not be able to pull out. They will be held accountable and everyone they hold dear. Ironically, they created the need to protect their loved ones from the Alliance by the very act they took to prevent it.
There was no honor in genocide, but there is also no honor in surrendering and leaving those you protect to die.
That line "I trusted you!" wasn't even scripted. The voice actor randomly added it while they played the scene and they decided to keep it…
"we've never seen one of these where someone doesnt cheat" i bursted out laughing ngl, that was so accurate
There is an amazing dialogue between Garrosh Hellscream and Saurfang during WotLK that perfectly encapsulates who Saurfang is.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Your father's blood runs strong in you, Hellscream. Impatient as always… Impatient and reckless.
High Overlord Saurfang says: You rush headlong into all-out war without a thought of the consequences.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Do not speak to me of consequences, old one.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies.
High Overlord Saurfang says: And while Grom died a glorious death – freeing us all from the blood curse – he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past.
High Overlord Saurfang says: His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
High Overlord Saurfang pauses.
High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Our minds were finally free, yes… Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them… You never forget…
High Overlord Saurfang says: Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter… It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed… It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies…
High Overlord Saurfang pauses.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes…
Saurfang turns away and looks at the map instead.
Garrosh Hellscream says: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
Saurfang turns around for a moment to answer.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I don't eat pork…
High Overlord Saurfang spits.
As to Derek's improvement – Forsaken generally do look like he did in his coffin, corpses walking, missing bits and/or disfigured, the works. Sylvanas does have a method to 'upgrade' the looks, like herself, Nathanos, elite soldiers like the Dark Rangers, and Derek. I think one of the books(Before the storm, maybe?) briefly describes the process, and iirc it involves a living being being sacrificed. It's not something all forsaken get access to by a long stretch, and a significant majority would almost certainly reject it out of hand.
53:40 can’t believe nobody said it but the first thing I thought of was the Balrog’s fiery sword breaking on Gandalf’s – also spherical – shield and on the bridge of Khazad-dûm
Garrosh is the true Warchief!!!!!
Regarding "why is it not a film" "why won't they make a show like that" the issue is the cost. Those cinematics are very difficult and expensive to produce. Pretty sure that's the main reason. They would have to lower the quality to make it sustainable and then there's no guarantee they would still be good enough.
THERE WILL BE NO SYLVANS SLANDER
4:03:30
Makgora doesn't have rule against magic.
It has only one rule. You choose the weapon and style before battle and then never change.
4:21:21
Anduin isn't the only King when to Orgrimmar.
People forgets that Varian spend years in Orgrimmar as a Gladiator.
Plus in Garrosh defeat cinematic entire alliance leaders are already in Orgrimmar.
A few things…
1) Nathanos (Sylvanas's "righthand man") is also her discreet life partner. He is my favorite character in WOW. His voice acting and characterization are amazing. Check out his backstory if you get the chance. It is deliciously creepy. His love for Sylvanas is indescribable. Ride or die till the end.
2) People forget that Sylvanas's back history is filled with pride & folly and also grief & torture. While I haven't agreed with all of her character's choices, I feel like her life story brings a sense of understanding to why she reacted or made the choices that she made in game.
3) I have not seen anyone mention that Sylvanas is a freaking general! She was the Ranger General for the Sin'Dorei prior to her death at the hands of Arthas. She is a tactician of the "hunt". She is not ignorant of combat/battle. Her character is not inherently malicious or without honor. She has had to make tough decisions as the leader of the Forsaken, just to ensure their survival. I personally did not like how her story was written for BFA and forward. No spoilers. I just think her character as a whole deserved better writing and character development.
I am a Sylvanas fan. She is one of my top 5 characters in WOW…but Nathanos Blightcaller (Steed) will always be my number one.
I feel need to add this. Saurfang sas this lines in WOTLK ICC raid when we (horde side only) encounter his son as a raid boss, raised as a Death Knight by the Lich King after the Wrathgate cinematic:
"My boy died at the Wrath Gate. I am here only to collect his body."
"We named him Dranosh. It means "Heart of Draenor" in Orcish. I would not let the warlocks take him. My boy would be safe, hidden away by the elders of Garadar. I made a promise to his mother before she died; that I would cross the Dark Portal alone – whether I lived or died, my son would be safe. Untainted… Today, I fulfill that promise."
after we defeated his son in ICC raid:
"You will have a proper ceremony in Nagrand next to the pyres of your mother and ancestors."
"Honor, young heroes… no matter how dire the battle… never forsake it."
This is my favorite story line in the Warcraft universe. It deserved its own complete expansion. Sadly it was all down hill from here imo.
Don't know if you've read ahead or anything, but she does have help outside her mortal coil. Saurfang is one of the most powerful mortals to walk the planet and to lose like this was quite sad but we all saw it coming because we knew Sylvanas wasn't quite her old self.
Edit: During the original release of the game, when the Alliance came to raid Orgrimmar and kill Thrall, they weren't afraid of the defensive raids setup in the throne room. They were afraid of fighting Saurfang at the gate. All by himself.
I looked at a couple of discussions of Mak'Gora and one point that is made is that it is a duel of honor, between leaders – and at least part of the honor that matters is what the witnesses / followers see to be honorable. In that way the division between the people in discord probably mirrors some of the nitpits that would happen among the citizens of the Horde & Alliance – did she cheat using magic, did he cheat using a magic sword, etc etc. Part of the Mak'Gora is that it is about the culture – refusing a Mak'Gora would be about losing face, and if you refuse a challenge from someone who doesn't even have face like a peon, or a member of the Alliance, or even a traitor like Saurfang, there might be nothing to lose. But since it is about honor and leadership and has witnesses, if you go ahead and show disrespect to the entire culture like Sylvanas did, you have just lost. (as you said later, I was making notes as I watched the video). I do like that this is not Shoved right in your face and overexplained 20 times some of the current blizzard writing is all about oversimplifying OK these characters are fighting for family so we're going to have them all stand there in their disney clothes and chirp Family! Family! it disrespects the player base (and also makes no sense, they were killing family 2 seconds ago). I think Blizzard should make or license(?) movies, they made an odd plot choice of including both sides in the Warcraft Movie which didn't work with the general audience, but an appropriate movie plot could be selected out of the CRAPTON of lore to be made into a movie.
Time between Shadowlands (which is up next) and Dragonflight is a few years – so after that I'd add at least another year, might be a couple. So the Anduin in War within and here has to be around 10 years. Here, a boy, in WW a broken man.
The gemstones in the sword when it splits has 1 being blue and the other being red showing the unifying of the horde and the alliance
Stream starting with ELwynn Forest soundtrack… automatic win.. One of the most soothing pieces of music I've ever heard in my 62 years.
As some others have said the rules of a mak’gora are established before the duel starts. So no Thrall and Sylvanas did not cheat here. Essentially unless otherwise stated anything goes in a mak’gora.
I've seen "Reckoning" a thousand times, yet there is something I only noticed while watching it with you: that "reckless" moment where Saurfang starts 'wailing' on Sylvanas with Anduin's blade? Go back to the CG of the first battle between horde and alliance after "Old Soldier", the opening battle where Anduin first fights. Those are the exact same moves. Up and to the point where he struck down the blow which punched a hole into the floor beneath his enemy.
Except when Anduin did it, it was out of panic, of desperation. "I need to do this to survive, I need to be strong for my people, for my soldiers, I need to show them I am a leader worth following and I will protect them!" – Meanwhile, each and every one of Saufang's strikes is impactful in the opposite direction because it is calculated. As are the words behind them.He knows 100% what he is doing, and he knows it'll work.
2:54:03 I thought you will catch that one too but no one said anything – “I’m no one’s savior” here and “I have no light” from Anduin in the war within