My thoughts and rambles about style switching and why the mechanic itself worked well and what were the real problems behind it.
DMC5 Mods: SSSiyan Trainer Mod
https://www.nexusmods.com/devilmaycry5/mods/369
DMC4 Mods: https://github.com/muhopensores/dmc4_hook/releases
Songs:
Final Fantasy X – Besaid
DMC4 – Frozen Frog
Tekken 6 – Manji Valley
Sonic Robo Blast 2 – Techno Hill Zone, Act 2
Shadow the Hedghog – Cosmic Fall
Marvel vs Capcom 2 – Swamp Theme
Sonic Unleashed – Adabat Jungle Joyride Night
source
This video blew me away. It’s all factual. I want to say I was one of those people that never knew anything about the mechanics of DMC & how complex it is. Chasertech educated me when I tried arguing a point that had no weight to it.
He is one of many amazing combo artists out there that can teach you so much.
If you want a more concrete example of why movement inputs on guns is not a good enough solution – look no further than Trish in DMC4:SE
For the game to discern between you moving and shooting or inputting a direction move for a Pandora attack there's a slight delay during which you have to hold the direction and the shoot buttons. What ends up is that if you do not buffer it out of something, you always have this empty time, during which Trish just fires a single gunshot before executing the move.
Is it the end of the world? No. For casual play you'll barely notice it. But it just ends up being slightly janky.
Oh and if you wanna talk real accessibility and I mean real proper actual "I can play this game now" accessibility – just include a Game speed option that SLOWS down the game and I am not even kidding. That was already a staple of strategy games in the 2000s exactly because devs knew commanding multiple units takes time to learn how to do it properly.
If you can have turbo to speed the game up just for funsies, you can also slow it down just for funsies.
Here's an actual example: Using the DDMK mod by Serpentiem you can both increase and decrease the speed of the game. Try decreasing the speed of DMC4 from 1.0 to 0.9 or 0.8 even. Now all of a sudden executing a Guardfly becomes doable without having to break your fingers and learning how to do it becomes a question of first learning the inputs and then learning how to do them fast enough, instead of both at the same time.
As a casual ass player, style switching wasn’t a problem. I admit it’s difficult for me but that’s my challenge. Imo I feel it’s that it takes some skill, hand coordination and being quick to be as flashy and good as players we love watching. I’m not good at style switching but I do try to practice it out. I do love accessibility but this for me ain’t that much if a problem. Imo if you try to make Dante and his style switching more accessible I think it would destroy his gameplay.
I don't care how many people complain. You kinda gotta hold yourself accountable for entertaining such a dumb take lol. Like how does style switching being bad make any logical sense?
Personally, I find switching weapons (or styles) as central mechanics to games really cool cause of the rhythm element they introduce to a game. At least that’s how I view their implementation. Somewhat related to DMC, DOOM ETERNAL and ULTRAKILL reward you for switching weapons often, with the former even requiring you to do so. I can see how „being forced“ to switch could be unsatisfactory to some, but personally I feel it adds another layer of depth to a game that gets you into a flow state quicker.
Good work on this one. Style switching was always fun for me.
It's never been bad, but honestly the Switch version of 3 could've handled it better. It's clunky in a way it isn't in 4 and 5, or the modded version of 3. Hell, even the China exclusive mobile game doesn't have the issue that 3 on Switch does, granted you only have Trickster and RG in that game as Swordmaster and Gunslinger are integrated into your core moveset in that game.
For example, the classic Star Rave is impossible to do in 3. You cannot use Sky Star immediately after Aerial Rave in 3, there's a forced delay before the game will let you do it. After a slash at full jump height, you are skimming the ground before you can use Sky Star.
You can switch to Trickster no problem but you can't use Sky Star immediately after Aerial Rave. Iirc this applies to all aerial melee attacks that don't have knockback, they all have this forced delay before Sky Star can be used. Weirdly, moves with knockback do not have this delay. The delay also doesn't apply to other things as you can outright cancel the end of Aerial Rave with any Gunslinger move or Royal Guard.
It's not the end of the world as you can get around it by jump canceling an aerial attack, either with Air Hike or Enemy Step, after which you can immediately use Sky Star, bypassing the delay, but this makes a pretty tricky thing to time much trickier. You can probably cancel into GS and then into Sky Star as well but I never thought of that until now, regardless though it's a needless extra layer of complication compared to the other games.
This isn't the only such instance of 3's official style switching being kind of clunky, but it's the one that stands out the most to me. Can't remember the others off hand. They aren't major issues and slightly clunky style switching is still better than no style switching but noteworthy nonetheless considering how seamlessly the mechanic functions in every other game. Just kind of a let down to see the official version be noticeably inferior to the fan made mod on a basic functionality level, when this issue isn't present anywhere else in the series.
I suck at DMC combos, but it feels good to learn even one combo that resembles a pro move. People just like to be rewarded without any hard work.
Had no idea this was a topic even up for debate in the fanbase. The amount of variables you have through style switching and all of the different devil arms is what makes Dante in 4, 5, and modded 3 such an engaging character to control and mess around with. Reaching mastery or even basic competence of that depth is really satisfying. Why would anyone wanna do away with it?
Theres anyone alive that says style switching is bad? Not understanding or being bad at a mechanic doesn't mean you get to say its bad. This is the pinnacle of the genre so you dont get to come intot the series 2 decades late and complain
This is almost as bad as ignorant people who say turn based rpgs are bad just for existing and that they all should be hack and slashes
Fairly new to DMC (got DMC 5 as my first a couple weeks ago, yeah I'm late, I'm poor)
I do think it's both a skill issue and just people expecting that they should be able to pull off flashy moves with Dante right off the bat. On my first playthrough on Human I literally went through it using only Swordmaster and Gunslinger, though that's about a 90%-10% usage ratio. Recently after completing Devil Hunter difficulty I decided to slightly reduce the weapon load temporarily (using only Ebony and Ivory plus the Two Kalina Ann as my guns) but now trying to add trickster and royal guard into my mix.
I can somehow get SSS ranks every now and then despite mostly still using swordmaster. I do believe it's just a matter of Git gud, nothing really much of an issue with the system.
Great video.
I think the barrier to entry got lowered significantly in DMC5 (e.g. with Dante's Air Taunt) , which is honestly a great thing.
However in DMC4 it is completely understandable for a first time player to find so many tools of Dante locked behind styles to be extremely jarring. I did too!
I think they streamlined the weapons too much in the transition from 3 to 4, like you said, because they wanted to incentivise people to actual switch styles and not stick with just one they like, as many players did in DMC3 back then.
That however isn't a fault of the system, but of its implementation as you already stated.
This only sounds like a disscussion for someone who doesnt know how to play DMC in which case who cares what their ignorant opinion is anyway?
Absolutely SSS video. I am glad that DMC 5 Dante feels like the best of 3 and 4. The game gives you the option to play however you'd like. On my first playthrough, I played it like DMC 3 to learn the systems and weapons. The next playthrough went more like DMC4, with me using everything at my disposal.
Once again, great video.
DMC5 Dante doesn't feel hard when it comes to style switching cuz all his styles feel like complete movesets so early on you don feel like you have to switch very often.
EDIT: 16:37 ONWARD IS EVERYTHING I MEAN. IF YOU TAKE NOTHING ELSE AWAY TAKE THIS AWAY.
It was bad. in 3 and 3SE. When you couldn't actually switch your Styles on the fly and could only switch them by going to a statue. Not to mention certain boss fights being a pain in the ass without a specific Style (good luck dodging Beowulf's feather volley without Lv3 Royal Guard). That and the two bonus Styles, Quicksilver and Doppelganger, not being proper Styles, and just being a singular moves that rob you of one of various halves of Dante's moveset from his proper Styles. Not saying they're bad, but they aren't nearly as depthful as the main 4 and are kinda boring as a result (less of an issue in the ONE version of the game that allows manual switching, even using those Bonus Styles, but I'd still like it if they had proper movesets).
Wait, people have issues with Style Switching? First time I hear of it.
Am I misunderstanding something about the Weapon Wheel point? 3 had you switching Guns and Devil Arms using the two Triggers, one for each weapon type. 4 did the same thing, but now you had access to a 3rd Gun & Devil Arm, and since there was only one Trigger for each, you had to progress forward in the cycle, double tapping to get to the weapon behind your current one. 5 functions exactly the same with a 4th Slot, even more with the unlock.
How are these not Weapon Wheels? It sounds like Switch Edition just introduced a problem it didn't need, since they could've just used the Triggers like 3 always did. It sounds like your problem is with a stupid control decision and not the Weapon Wheel itself. Or maybe I'm not understanding Switch Edition's control scheme.
who said it was
The mechanic is fine but there is a loss of unique mechanics vs DMC3.
I agree with the sentiment that 4's issue with style switching really stems from the limited moveset of Dante's weapons. But I also think that it has a lot to do with how a player will compare it to Nero's gameplay. A new player will see that Nero can do an aerial combo and helmbreaker with one button, and then when they get to Dante and he needs an additional input to be able to do the same they get confused and complain.
Thinking about it More I agree with the Style Switching Points BUT I think the Weapon Wheel Idea COULD WORK But it needs three big adjustments which DMC 3 SE's Lacked:
– 1: Time must be in Slow-Mo as to give the Player Time to Access The Weapon they want.
– 2: Have Devil Arms be Selected via the Left Stick and Fire Arms be Selected Via the Right Stick that way a Player can Select the Specific Weapon they want and even Style.
– 3: Have Bigger Wheels, Maybe look at how The Recent DOOM Games handle Weapon Wheels, as those have an appropriate size IMO.
Me, a passerby who has only played ever played DMC4, casually, unaware this was a point contention:
Alright, you've convinced me.
Style switching is fun and all, but you have to admit the games have become less strategic as a whole compared to the previous ones. Sometimes restrictions are a good thing because you actually had to think about wich style and weapon you took into battle, making the battle take place in your head before you even stepped into an arena. While i do like wacky combos as much as the next guy, i also like strategy wich DMC 1 and 3 excelled at.
Fantastic video chaser love to see this kind of content for dmc