40 thoughts on “Designing the 13.10 ADC Item Update”
After 10+ years top lane feels so miserable and not fun and since I’ve stopped playing IRL has improved x9999 so I have only the balance team to thank for this
I love these videos. Seriously, my favorite YouTube content. There's SO MUCH toxicity in the League community at Riot: "Riot doesn't know what they're doing," "Riot doesn't understand the game." Seeing the reasoning behind the changes and the principles at play is fascinating. Thanks for making these.
Thank you so much for your transperency, it feels so refreshing to finaly see the thought process behind balance desision-making. I do think that these videos are very informative and bring a lot of benefit to the comunity. I wish we could see something similiar from other devs as well. Nontheless thank you so much for your hard work! I enjoy these videos from you a lot!
I'd love to see some experiments with making crits not random. It really sucks to sit on one crit item and not have a lot of control over your damage, and on the flip side, it sucks when somebody wins a trade due to a lucky crit.
Imagine a version of crit where every third attack is a guaranteed crit, and the damage of that crit is what scales with items.
This backloads ADC damage so they are still bad at dueling and should still stay engaged and build attack speed, but would be so much more consistent and satisfying.
For Vayne I liked the direction of the ap ratio being on w, to me it lets players decide if they wanna go ap for her tank shredding W identity or more ad for her more assassin-esque thematic with R-Q invis
Thats very nice of you to make a whole video to explain to me how you destroyed yasuo and yone from start to finish but also telling me how you did NOTHING to compensate. Created NO item to rush early in exchange for shieldbow and BT rush. Thank you phreak your transparency have no limit !!
For IE, mythic passive, how about it being 5% crit chance per legendary this would allow a 3 crit item build with 1 off role item and would give 100% crit for the whole build.
I think you're going on the wrong direction with rageblade, it gives too much ap for a mythic item, not every rageblade user wants that much of ap, there's like, 2 ap champs that will buy rb, and they like AD too. I think you should lower the ap to smth like 20 and increase the ad to 40, also reduce atk speed per stack to smth like 5% so you'll lose 12% at max stacks, but increase the base atk speed to 35%, receiving 10% atk speed, it's a fair trade that makes the item so much better to rush, if you read this, think about it.
ALSO THINK ABOUT REDUCING YI'S AP RATIO ON W AND ADDING ONE ON HIS E BECAUSE THEN HE COULD USE THE AP FROM RAGEBLADE, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT YI USES HIS W FOR HEALING LIKE 2-3 TIMES A GAME
thanks for the work, but i have to be honest, i dislike a lot the shieldbow change. For the shieldbow-hurricane-Infinity edge adc users, the order of the build is destroyed with this changes. IE isn't optimal as first item, the same with hurricane, and shieldbow won't be either. Are we going to be forced to build BOTRK first to be able to buy that build???
I dont think that the rage blade change is good to the mythic passive because , adcs have access to bork and LDR which means they will deal too much damage I agree that they need to deal damage ,BUT there are some champions like katarina which can make the item OP and some others which abuse it better than others like vayne , kog maw , kalista , kaisa , and idk how to feel about it
like the crit chance idea. it feels really unsatisfying to watch a pro miss lethal cause they rolled like shit and in low mmr where games go to 6 items all the time it feels like there's more itemization options
i think something needs to be done with energized that's just a little bit more interesting, maybe ties them together a little more explicitly, but idk about it being stuck on a mythic like that
In all of those discussions you never mentioned champions like yasuo that get lost in the shuffle of balancing around adcs and hybrid carries , now he has no clear path that feels good , unlike hybrid carries who now have very satisfying build paths
Phreak You will never see this I'm sure but here is my take. There is too much cc across the board, slows are to numerous and too strong, KNOCK UPS NEED to be added to tenacity or Ninja Tabi's need to be heavy enough you drop faster. Or removed, removed is fine. This has all led to damage being too high, or feeling too high because outside of near perfect play you die before you get to use your character.
Sure pulling off chain cc and killing the enemy feels good for the guys winning, it feels bad for the loser. It feels like you have little to no counter play. And as the vast majority of the player base isn't at high levels of execution the game feels far less fun then it used to with less champions making it less likely to be up into so much hard CC. So damage has either risen to counter the vastness of CC or Damage feels higher because you don't get to counterplay. You don't get to kite a giant tank for 20 autos, because now they sit on top of you. Or they don't even have a chance because you 4 auto them.
Or they don't get to get on top of you because the support cc'd them. Or the support can't play cause mid cc'd them or instant killed them. Or laners can't lane cause jungler perma ganks. The game usually feels like one side can't lose a situation. There are very few even fights happening. So it feels less like a skill issue and more like a draft gap. Or maybe just a match making gap.
If I play adc with randoms The game feels hopeless. But if I adc with my friend who is a thresh god, they are completely locked down and can't fight back while I kill them. Doesn't make me feel like a good adc and they don't feel like they have a shot.
A lot of it comes down to the vision game too. Which sure is a skill, but when you lose because someone didn't see a flank then get 100-0. It doesn't feel like you had any active counter play options. Your just dead because you didn't have a ward, or you didn't glance at your map the exact second you needed to. If an assassin comes in and chunks me out, great I still can adjust what I am doing and maybe outplay them for the next rotation of spells, or a team mate might be able to respond, or I can run. But If I am dead in less then a second. It doesn't feel good. So even if things are balanced in win rate, they aren't balanced enough in situation.
TLDR: I think satisfaction across the board would go up if we had longer fights where we get to use our champs. Less being cc'd for the entire fight and not getting to do anything. Less getting 1 shot. I feel like that is what league has lost. It is more about trying to make everyone feel like an absolute monster. I 4 auto'd a sion. That's so epic. But it just sucks for the sion. Or the Sion Ulted you, then slowed you, then knocked you up and now your dead. You never got to move, to kite, to anything and he is full tank doing the most damage in the game.
Drop damage 30% across the board. No more 1 shots in 1v1's. Decrease cc so you actually get a chance to move. No more 99% slows. Hell no more 30 percent slows. 15 max. With very very few outliers. Sure if a full cc team catches someone and layers it perfectly, Yeah I am dead. Good on them. But if they don't I need some sort of hope and chance to play out of it. And they need to be weak after they blow everything for that. So they have to kite back and stay safe.
I should have rewrote this, its rambling. I don't think I'm making my points effectively. Just slow the fights down. Everything is a stand off because too much everything, meaning you get caught your dead, team loses, everyone flames. No voice means you can't communicate better unless in flex with friends. Someone gets caught they should still be counter play as a team. It doesn't feel like there is. So no one is satisfied.
Well maybe gale force can have a short cool down but fighters get their dash on stride breaker back. Or maybe it shouldn't be damage plus a dash. It could be just damage or just a dash. So it isn't just a flash ignite combo?
How about gale force still dashes and fires missiles but the missiles don't deal damage but inflict heal cut on up to two targets? Then you have a damage centered mythic, a burst survival mythic and a kiting mythic. Or with the IE changes. An auto focused Mythic, a ability focused mythic, and a kiting mythic. And rageblade for hybrid builds (though I am not sure hybrid builds are healthy for the game because its almost impossible then for a tank to itemize.
If hybrid builds persist though. Bring back gunblade. If omni vamp is too hard to balance because mages just take it. Then Make it lower levels of life steal and AP vamp. Then if a mage buys it sure they get some small life steal form their weak autos, and some life steal from their ap damage. But it isn't optimal because its weak when it doens't have both to draw from. There might still be some rare games it could be correct.
I really do think heal cut in general needs to be removed. I don't actually hate the gale force heal cut idea. Because it has drawbacks in damage, but is also on an item that is designed for a longer fight so that less healing isn't completely crippling to a kit.
But how can you balance it? If healing is relatively balanced then heal cut completely negates a champions ability to play, or healing is too high forcing heal cut to be purchased. This limits choice. And if you want to build like verticle build paths do they all just have built in heal cut or am I giving up something that is Proper for me to buy? Does heal cut then only fit onto certain roles or certain champs? Well then that role gets flamed for not picking the right champions. Flaming about heal cut already happens in my games. And it still feels like it doesn't matter half the time. Either they still heal through it, or you blow them up without it.
It is really hard to see how much it helped or if it helped at all. So even if working as intended for the players I don't think it feels great. Which makes it a bad design.
I.E., quickblades, and rageblade already changed your full build like your saying they do as a mythic did they not? Are they that much stronger as a mythic, that they are better than as a legendary?
Ok ngl, at first I was also on that boat. Cuz it felt let down seeing more adc changes and nothing to mage items or champs. The though of ie navori and rageblade should be mythic makes actually sense lol
Is it just me that thinks that runans should require recurve bow/s to craft, since they both have magic damage on hit. And it make sense that youre buying extra bows, since runans is basically just a couple of recurve bows strapped to your back.
Big respect to you phreak , much love. You're doing more for this game than the old balance team has done in their entire lives. Also if you see this phreak, could you look into making conqueror back into an adc item? I am begging for Conqueror or some kind of fervor of battle remake to come back for adc's im tired of every adc running lethal tempo it's super boring and i'd much rather play an AD heavy style of ADC.
What? Mages are definitely sad deathcap exists, the fact that there's one single must-buy to even do damage is fucking stupid, mythic/dcap/void is the reason mage itemization is fucking trash
Man you’re doing an amazing job, just because some people are very loud doesn’t mean anything, I don’t tend to interact much online, probably the same as many other people and we all really appreciate the work you’re doing. I don’t even play the game anymore and this videos are still super fun to watch, keep up the amazing work and don’t let yourself be discouraged 😊
Phreak can you do something about jinx survivability : it’s sad too see a 6 item jinx be useless and one-shotted by 3 items tank build ksante especially when jinx is comes online on 3 items. u become useless when your team depend solely on you with nothing u can do
This is totally random tip, and to speak plainly I really appreciate and love these videos you make… Blinding white screens are bleh and I can deal with them on static websites but in a video it's a little more difficult. IE the bright white text slides. Just a tip! I feel like a lot of people probably watch these videos at night. And it doesn't really hurt during the day as long as the text is readable. I'll survive but just thought I'd throw it out there.
Wish I could strangle you right now phreak!Game was finally playable but we had to buff adcs even more and now rework them again someone should kidnapp you in-game
f*king tards talking sh*t about our only shot at actually getting some balance in the (balance team). Adc is borderline the least fun role in the game after Jungler. Being paired with a brain ill npc that thinks they know how to support, but go swain support , and proceed to not put a single ward down, and doesn't have any awareness when we're being ganked, and doesn't react to my assists and danger pings as I ping them to help me peel the jungler… Fun role. Adc is aids.
Support is so easy and chill , but then you have the tard adcs that pick ezreal and think they are reckless and miss every 4 skill shots somehow missing his blink projectile too. Soraka is so OP and easy , but nope they rather play a high skill champ. I play all god damn roles. Jungler in ranked because I hate afk junglers. The 10 minutes in and 0 ganks lee sins that think they will scale , and have no idea that lee is strong early or have done any research on the champ they main. Example. I told some dude to use bel veth e when they had used their combo or got the enemy lower , because it does more damage the lower the enemy is , but they called me toxic for giving them actual advice on their champ (0% − 300% extra damage) based on missing health of enemy.
After 10+ years top lane feels so miserable and not fun and since I’ve stopped playing IRL has improved x9999 so I have only the balance team to thank for this
In an alternate universe:
Phreak buffs top lane
Top becomes fun and interactive
Community: "He's an ADC main, why is he even touching top"
– People
I love these videos. Seriously, my favorite YouTube content. There's SO MUCH toxicity in the League community at Riot: "Riot doesn't know what they're doing," "Riot doesn't understand the game." Seeing the reasoning behind the changes and the principles at play is fascinating. Thanks for making these.
Jesus Christ, i made it through this 1 1/2 hour brick of a video…
Thank you so much for your transperency, it feels so refreshing to finaly see the thought process behind balance desision-making. I do think that these videos are very informative and bring a lot of benefit to the comunity. I wish we could see something similiar from other devs as well.
Nontheless thank you so much for your hard work! I enjoy these videos from you a lot!
I'd love to see some experiments with making crits not random. It really sucks to sit on one crit item and not have a lot of control over your damage, and on the flip side, it sucks when somebody wins a trade due to a lucky crit.
Imagine a version of crit where every third attack is a guaranteed crit, and the damage of that crit is what scales with items.
This backloads ADC damage so they are still bad at dueling and should still stay engaged and build attack speed, but would be so much more consistent and satisfying.
For Vayne I liked the direction of the ap ratio being on w, to me it lets players decide if they wanna go ap for her tank shredding W identity or more ad for her more assassin-esque thematic with R-Q invis
canw e have anything for melee crit users i FEEL Like they dont have their place in the item overhaul and feels really bad
Thats very nice of you to make a whole video to explain to me how you destroyed yasuo and yone from start to finish but also telling me how you did NOTHING to compensate. Created NO item to rush early in exchange for shieldbow and BT rush. Thank you phreak your transparency have no limit !!
I love this stuff yo.
For IE, mythic passive, how about it being 5% crit chance per legendary this would allow a 3 crit item build with 1 off role item and would give 100% crit for the whole build.
I think you're going on the wrong direction with rageblade, it gives too much ap for a mythic item, not every rageblade user wants that much of ap, there's like, 2 ap champs that will buy rb, and they like AD too. I think you should lower the ap to smth like 20 and increase the ad to 40, also reduce atk speed per stack to smth like 5% so you'll lose 12% at max stacks, but increase the base atk speed to 35%, receiving 10% atk speed, it's a fair trade that makes the item so much better to rush, if you read this, think about it.
ALSO THINK ABOUT REDUCING YI'S AP RATIO ON W AND ADDING ONE ON HIS E BECAUSE THEN HE COULD USE THE AP FROM RAGEBLADE, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT YI USES HIS W FOR HEALING LIKE 2-3 TIMES A GAME
thanks for the work, but i have to be honest, i dislike a lot the shieldbow change. For the shieldbow-hurricane-Infinity edge adc users, the order of the build is destroyed with this changes. IE isn't optimal as first item, the same with hurricane, and shieldbow won't be either. Are we going to be forced to build BOTRK first to be able to buy that build???
I dont think that the rage blade change is good to the mythic passive because , adcs have access to bork and LDR which means they will deal too much damage I agree that they need to deal damage ,BUT there are some champions like katarina which can make the item OP and some others which abuse it better than others like vayne , kog maw , kalista , kaisa , and idk how to feel about it
I love guinsoo hybrid being back on-hit kennen neeko bard and a few others are all now viable again
I have hated almost every change you have advocated. I hope this fails and you are removed
like the crit chance idea. it feels really unsatisfying to watch a pro miss lethal cause they rolled like shit and in low mmr where games go to 6 items all the time it feels like there's more itemization options
i think something needs to be done with energized that's just a little bit more interesting, maybe ties them together a little more explicitly, but idk about it being stuck on a mythic like that
In all of those discussions you never mentioned champions like yasuo that get lost in the shuffle of balancing around adcs and hybrid carries , now he has no clear path that feels good , unlike hybrid carries who now have very satisfying build paths
Phreak You will never see this I'm sure but here is my take. There is too much cc across the board, slows are to numerous and too strong, KNOCK UPS NEED to be added to tenacity or Ninja Tabi's need to be heavy enough you drop faster. Or removed, removed is fine. This has all led to damage being too high, or feeling too high because outside of near perfect play you die before you get to use your character.
Sure pulling off chain cc and killing the enemy feels good for the guys winning, it feels bad for the loser. It feels like you have little to no counter play. And as the vast majority of the player base isn't at high levels of execution the game feels far less fun then it used to with less champions making it less likely to be up into so much hard CC. So damage has either risen to counter the vastness of CC or Damage feels higher because you don't get to counterplay. You don't get to kite a giant tank for 20 autos, because now they sit on top of you. Or they don't even have a chance because you 4 auto them.
Or they don't get to get on top of you because the support cc'd them. Or the support can't play cause mid cc'd them or instant killed them. Or laners can't lane cause jungler perma ganks. The game usually feels like one side can't lose a situation. There are very few even fights happening. So it feels less like a skill issue and more like a draft gap. Or maybe just a match making gap.
If I play adc with randoms The game feels hopeless. But if I adc with my friend who is a thresh god, they are completely locked down and can't fight back while I kill them. Doesn't make me feel like a good adc and they don't feel like they have a shot.
A lot of it comes down to the vision game too. Which sure is a skill, but when you lose because someone didn't see a flank then get 100-0. It doesn't feel like you had any active counter play options. Your just dead because you didn't have a ward, or you didn't glance at your map the exact second you needed to. If an assassin comes in and chunks me out, great I still can adjust what I am doing and maybe outplay them for the next rotation of spells, or a team mate might be able to respond, or I can run. But If I am dead in less then a second. It doesn't feel good. So even if things are balanced in win rate, they aren't balanced enough in situation.
TLDR: I think satisfaction across the board would go up if we had longer fights where we get to use our champs. Less being cc'd for the entire fight and not getting to do anything. Less getting 1 shot. I feel like that is what league has lost. It is more about trying to make everyone feel like an absolute monster. I 4 auto'd a sion. That's so epic. But it just sucks for the sion. Or the Sion Ulted you, then slowed you, then knocked you up and now your dead. You never got to move, to kite, to anything and he is full tank doing the most damage in the game.
Drop damage 30% across the board. No more 1 shots in 1v1's. Decrease cc so you actually get a chance to move. No more 99% slows. Hell no more 30 percent slows. 15 max. With very very few outliers. Sure if a full cc team catches someone and layers it perfectly, Yeah I am dead. Good on them. But if they don't I need some sort of hope and chance to play out of it. And they need to be weak after they blow everything for that. So they have to kite back and stay safe.
I should have rewrote this, its rambling. I don't think I'm making my points effectively. Just slow the fights down. Everything is a stand off because too much everything, meaning you get caught your dead, team loses, everyone flames. No voice means you can't communicate better unless in flex with friends. Someone gets caught they should still be counter play as a team. It doesn't feel like there is. So no one is satisfied.
i wonder if the extra magic damage will be noticeable on thresh since he's got comically low mr
Well maybe gale force can have a short cool down but fighters get their dash on stride breaker back. Or maybe it shouldn't be damage plus a dash. It could be just damage or just a dash. So it isn't just a flash ignite combo?
How about gale force still dashes and fires missiles but the missiles don't deal damage but inflict heal cut on up to two targets? Then you have a damage centered mythic, a burst survival mythic and a kiting mythic. Or with the IE changes. An auto focused Mythic, a ability focused mythic, and a kiting mythic. And rageblade for hybrid builds (though I am not sure hybrid builds are healthy for the game because its almost impossible then for a tank to itemize.
If hybrid builds persist though. Bring back gunblade. If omni vamp is too hard to balance because mages just take it. Then Make it lower levels of life steal and AP vamp. Then if a mage buys it sure they get some small life steal form their weak autos, and some life steal from their ap damage. But it isn't optimal because its weak when it doens't have both to draw from. There might still be some rare games it could be correct.
I really do think heal cut in general needs to be removed. I don't actually hate the gale force heal cut idea. Because it has drawbacks in damage, but is also on an item that is designed for a longer fight so that less healing isn't completely crippling to a kit.
But how can you balance it? If healing is relatively balanced then heal cut completely negates a champions ability to play, or healing is too high forcing heal cut to be purchased. This limits choice. And if you want to build like verticle build paths do they all just have built in heal cut or am I giving up something that is Proper for me to buy? Does heal cut then only fit onto certain roles or certain champs? Well then that role gets flamed for not picking the right champions. Flaming about heal cut already happens in my games. And it still feels like it doesn't matter half the time. Either they still heal through it, or you blow them up without it.
It is really hard to see how much it helped or if it helped at all. So even if working as intended for the players I don't think it feels great. Which makes it a bad design.
I.E., quickblades, and rageblade already changed your full build like your saying they do as a mythic did they not? Are they that much stronger as a mythic, that they are better than as a legendary?
Ok ngl, at first I was also on that boat. Cuz it felt let down seeing more adc changes and nothing to mage items or champs. The though of ie navori and rageblade should be mythic makes actually sense lol
just get rid of the fucking mythics!!!!
Is it just me that thinks that runans should require recurve bow/s to craft, since they both have magic damage on hit. And it make sense that youre buying extra bows, since runans is basically just a couple of recurve bows strapped to your back.
Big respect to you phreak
, much love. You're doing more for this game than the old balance team has done in their entire lives. Also if you see this phreak, could you look into making conqueror back into an adc item? I am begging for Conqueror or some kind of fervor of battle remake to come back for adc's im tired of every adc running lethal tempo it's super boring and i'd much rather play an AD heavy style of ADC.
Definitely exciting for kalista otps like me.
What? Mages are definitely sad deathcap exists, the fact that there's one single must-buy to even do damage is fucking stupid, mythic/dcap/void is the reason mage itemization is fucking trash
i felt like i'm watching in x1.5
Amazing video and I want to see more of these
Man you’re doing an amazing job, just because some people are very loud doesn’t mean anything, I don’t tend to interact much online, probably the same as many other people and we all really appreciate the work you’re doing. I don’t even play the game anymore and this videos are still super fun to watch, keep up the amazing work and don’t let yourself be discouraged 😊
Phreak can you do something about jinx survivability : it’s sad too see a 6 item jinx be useless and one-shotted by 3 items tank build ksante especially when jinx is comes online on 3 items. u become useless when your team depend solely on you with nothing u can do
Is this the guy who buffed jax and is still acting like its a rework?
Do you actually think that these people that think ADC's are Overpowered have the intellectual capacity to understand Math and Science?
This is totally random tip, and to speak plainly I really appreciate and love these videos you make… Blinding white screens are bleh and I can deal with them on static websites but in a video it's a little more difficult. IE the bright white text slides. Just a tip! I feel like a lot of people probably watch these videos at night. And it doesn't really hurt during the day as long as the text is readable. I'll survive but just thought I'd throw it out there.
Wish I could strangle you right now phreak!Game was finally playable but we had to buff adcs even more and now rework them again someone should kidnapp you in-game
So when is Azir getting onhit?
f*king tards talking sh*t about our only shot at actually getting some balance in the (balance team). Adc is borderline the least fun role in the game after Jungler. Being paired with a brain ill npc that thinks they know how to support, but go swain support , and proceed to not put a single ward down, and doesn't have any awareness when we're being ganked, and doesn't react to my assists and danger pings as I ping them to help me peel the jungler… Fun role. Adc is aids.
Support is so easy and chill , but then you have the tard adcs that pick ezreal and think they are reckless and miss every 4 skill shots somehow missing his blink projectile too. Soraka is so OP and easy , but nope they rather play a high skill champ. I play all god damn roles. Jungler in ranked because I hate afk junglers. The 10 minutes in and 0 ganks lee sins that think they will scale , and have no idea that lee is strong early or have done any research on the champ they main. Example. I told some dude to use bel veth e when they had used their combo or got the enemy lower , because it does more damage the lower the enemy is , but they called me toxic for giving them actual advice on their champ (0% − 300% extra damage) based on missing health of enemy.
Ie feels awful and crit builds do no damage.