Support TOC on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/TheOuterCircle
Our bling shop – https://shop.spreadshirt.com.au/TheOuterCircle/?noCache=true
TOC Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/theoutercircle
TOC Facebook page – https://www.facebook.com/TheOuterCircle/
source
old world isnt undoubtedly a system which brings in fresh blood.
aos and 40k bring in new people, and they took the effort to actually acomplish that.
so the old world is about upselling on existing customers, and for that they usually do the minimum required.
the rules are barebone, probably a very good foundation, but it will never be more than that, like in heresy they will never touch the rules, they dont take the effort.
availability is a problem, not for experienced hobbyists, but most will stay with aos or 40k because of the high barrier.
if gw had at least a big box for every "main" faction like bretons and khemri, these two boxes are actually good. without such a box the barrier gets higher.
in old days they had multiple army and battallion boxes for every faction, it was easy to start an army in these days. in aos they still have reasonable boxes, 40ks are mostly shit, but 40k is about tournament, not about the hobby and fun.
when i see what future releases are about, only these two factions get a reasonable entry point, and everyone else will suffer.
pretty sure all the stuff sold out. the game should be fine
For someone who hates on GW so much and in such depth, you have this incredible event-centric, GW-centric perspective on this whole topic. I've already proven to you that most people go nowhere near an event, and that most events don't care about GW-only minis.
Everything you said about local scenes adjusting based on what happens is exactly what will happen. That's not a barrier for new players, because the community is a high quality one.
The "same limited unit pool" topic remains bizarre. Having an enormously diverse unit roster didn't save Heresy, and having short succinct army lists (with high modularity and items) doesn't hold back square base systems either.
You'll be proven wrong next year, but I have to stress, you really are just the "stop having fun!!" meme stickman across both videos. Just a waste of your time.
6th edition is still best. A rulebook that comes with skirmish and siege rules as standard, and its very balanced.
I claim this comment section for night goblin supremacy. ALL HAIL THE BADD MOON!!!!!!!
I have to ask… What exactly does "healthy" even mean? And, beyond that, why do you care whether TOW is "healthy"? I don't mean that to be snarky or dismissive either; I mean that the overall health is this really long term concept that as a player I feel very detached from. I am building a TOW army because I have a deep nostalgic attachment to WHFB, and scale modelling and wargaming are my main hobbies, so of course I want to play it. But if I only play it for 12 months before it's hard to get a game… Well, that's what happens to most games, sadly, and not just GW games.
It is annoying when an army that I spent so long building just lives in the display cabinet, but I eventually will go make a new army anyway. And that's not because I'm some braindead whale who just wants to give GW my cash. Quite the opposite, I entirely 3D print my stuff. But I am always painting or modelling something new anyway, and even if I am sticking to the same army book, I want to try out different weapons or different themes. I am not a beardy tournament guy who just wants to play an optimised list and never spend a penny beyond that, I want to paint and model cool stuff.
And that's really why we need to get down to brass tacks of what "healthy" means. Because the way you talk about it, there is a mix of the game being interesting/engaging for players in the mid to long term, and the game being financially viable for GW also in the mid to long term. And that's fine. Reasonable enough metrics to use. Except… I don't care about whether the game is profitable for GW. I care whether it's fun and interesting to play. Being profitable means that they are more likely to support it, which would be nice, but I don't even think about it for two seconds.
In particular, I am not going to pay out to support a game that I'm not interested in, or which isn't interesting to play. I'm sure that some people do think about whether a game will still be alive in a couple of years when they make their purchase. But I don't. Even if a game dies off in 12 months time, I can still enjoy it now. I can still enjoy it 15 years after it goes out of print, even if I have to drive a long way to get a game.
As someone who has been around GW for a long time, I know that being "supported" is pretty hit and miss anyway. Between power creep and lore changes, the stuff you buy is never going to last forever. Sometimes a whole edition is just trashy, and you just have to suck it up. So the only thing I care about is whether a game offers something interesting to me right now.
Which is why I find it weird that you've been so worried about the health of TOW at all. You've been around the block, you know how this stuff works. And you are an adult who is not counting the pennies. This is an expensive hobby, but you can afford it comfortably enough. I can understand being worried for younger and less affluent players who may end up buying stuff that they can never use. But this IS an expensive hobby nevertheless, it's ALWAYS been an expensive hobby. And I genuinely can't count the number of games that I have tried out over the years, only to find that there is no player base, or no official minis, or the company is already broke. It sucks, but it happens. If you are someone who has to worry about buying in to something popular, well, just play 40k my dude. It's ok. You don't have to play TOW.
Now, GW are still being their usual inept and disorganised selves with TOW. Of course they are not presenting things to the best of their ability. But again, I don't care all that much. It's up to them to figure out how to make a profit. I just care about whether this is an interesting game or not.
In South Africa we dont have offical GW stores. Of the 5 stores I shop from (there are maybe 8 total) all 5 are allowing the pdf factions. Offical or not makes little difference here.
Now we await the return on the other factions.
Thank you for the video–I appreciate all you do!
and lookhow many warhammer fantasy kits were killed off last year! wood elves lost so many models from 12ish years ago that would have been perfect for old world
There is limited release by GW because that is how they drip feed new consumers. Imagine a deluge of models across all armies. For one this would be difficult on a supply chain level. Look at Necromunda 2017. They took 2 years to release the 6 base gangs. Then 2 more years to release the individual house books after the revised rulebook. You can call them mistakes by GW, but necromunda is still going, and still getting releases.
The rules for all armies exists for longbeards. Confusing for new players yes, but the alternative of just releasing Bretonnia and Khemri as full armies without rules for other factions really would be foolish. 6th edition released all armies in a 'get you by' pdf called ravening hordes.
Macce is just salty that they don’t support Chaos Dwarves
Tbh imo its too early to tell if the game is dead or not. I dont think it is, but we'll have too wait for all the factions to release, from what ive seen in my area its popular with peoole who a lot of people
12:20 your age is showing lol. I think most people who play an online game will probably just goto an online forum and purchase online. There's a reason why walmart views amazon as their biggest competitor. Most people not stuck in an area that cost $40 to ship to just buy online and interact online. I don't think young players are going into the store to ask questions
Its all nonsense internal politics avoiding ‘competing’ with their own games and its so dumb. Same reason for legends stuff in 40k
Hey Macca, don’t take this the wrong way, but you are like my spirit YouTuber, salty like me and remind me of some old buddies in my gaming group, I’m from sydney and I worked for GW for a short period before they turned all their stores into single man stores open only 5 days. I realise that may be different in Queensland, but except for the sydney city store and rarely the Chatswood store, they are only ever open wed-sun and have reduced opening hours, oh and there used to be a 1.5 hour closed shop break everyday for lunch and banking- meaning you had to stop doing hobby and leave the store with all your belongings in it for what felt like a million aeons.
I lost my job with gw around that time due to cutbacks, and my gaming group fell apart as many friends moved in from tabletop to pc(Warcraft mostly) but I feel the death of fantasy contributed a great deal too.
I don’t know if you remember to back then circa 2011 but gw was struggling around then and age of Sigmar was a bit of a dud release at the time.
I shelved all my 40k armies and also fantasy armies, it hurt,but I got over it eventually, I stopped purchasing gw products for nearly 8 years only occasionally downloading a new codex (I hated the renaming of armies like astra militarum,) but I realise the chapter house law suits and Disney releasing Thor and suing the pants of gw caused this trademarking turn.
I hated anything gw did at the time, everything looked like wrong moves by the company, bad pr, bad quotes from investors, poor management, and even screwing over their own franchisees who owned businesses within their framework.
Gw went from shit to shittest real fast, and that actually made me happy, because I WANTED them to get better,
But all they did was hire influencers and talk about their brand until people cared again. They didn’t fix the issues, just exacerbated them.
Anyway sorry for the rant, I just wanted you to know that I listen to you because you remind me of me, and thanks to you I’ve even begun building a Horus heresy army, mostly from 3d prints sold to me from china.
So thanks I guess, from sydney, also I might also play(mostly just collect thanks to no community and my refusal to visit a gw) adeptus/legions and am FURIOUS at the fucked release on this and the sudden drop of old world clipping any chance it had to work, th lack of minis anywhere is a major hassle and I’d love to hear more of your take on this.
Cheers
Macca man dont let those that wont take what facts and opinions you offer ,to help the community, as what they are get to you. Im still only a few years into the hobby and can understand that you are just trying to show track records of how things have gone and continue to go just so that a hobby you love will thrive.
Can't shoot you down, I don't disagree with many of your points, most are well made, but they are still opinions (even if well judged based on previous history). I am not sure what "facts" someone could come up with that could change your stance, we are all just speculating at this point. The only thing I would say is Fantasy was a massive game, with decades of history, with many players hoping for it's return. So comparing it to Aeronautica is just not a like for like comparison. Sure, many players were burnt by the end of the game, and have either switched to other systems, whether that be AoS, Kings of War, 9th Age or are just "Oldhammering", but it seems many will return and at least try this. Will they buy new models or just the books? I don't know. Most old players I know aren't bothered by the re-release of the old models, and in fact are happy many old classics have returned. I have seen internet chatter to the opposite. Shrugs. Differing stances as always. On the support topic, what is GW support? My 40k Tyranid army got one new model in 10 years until last summer, were Tyranids not supported? If there is a book and models available then a faction is pretty much "supported" by GW standards. So indeed the issue you mentioned around faction availability is a fair concern, but could they have really released 150 boxes (total guess…) at launch to cover every faction? They have significant amount of out of stock units on their leading systems currently, just not sure they have the capacity. The trickle feed approach is not good, agreed, that doesn't help the new player you mentioned right now, but in a years time? Maybe they would find what they want. Will the old returning players keep it afloat until then, will they buy enough? I can see why you are pessimistic about the games future, and maybe it is a fool's hope, but maybe, just maybe, the heritage and old fanbase of Fantasy will be just enough. Not a fact, just an idiot's likely misplaced optimism.
No Kislev, no Cathay, despite being some of the factions they used early to hype up this game for most people. A story that is less than stellar, and half the armies people are interested in are not supported. Not to mention that they did away with the gray of Warhammer that we all love and goes for a simple narrative of good vs evil. Lovely. The game and setting is dead on arrival.
It is true, AOS IS GW's baby and primary concern.
Basically if you're an old player with a couple of complete armies, hobby savvy, can convert to save money etc, you're an enemy to GW.
Are you just going to bitch whine and moan about every fcking game that gw do? It's getting old now
Ngl, I always laugh my ass off when I hear people talking how they are warhammer players…. on TT simulator.
This people are so out of touch that they don't even realize what "the hobby" is.
I missed out on fantasy when it was still in stores for 40k, and if I ever wanted to play fantasy, I would just pick up an old rulebook from 6th or 8th and print the models for my friends to play.
I'm not touching a quarter of a game missing all the factions I would have been interested in
Worth noting for a new player trying to get in and the army potentially not even being available. GW has said the armies will release in waves over time. Not like an Empire wave and then a Warriors of Chaos wave, but as in Empire wave one consisting of some kits and the potentially months or year+ down the line Empire wave two with stuff occasionally (including pretty basic units by the fact trolls are going to be one) shoved into made to order along the way.
Yep, I have been trying to use newer Lizardmen models in Old Worlds. Although it hasn't been impossible, it has been a huge struggle to make work. The worst part is I am not confident that it will be worth the effort in the end, since they are a legacy army.
GW want the new ignorant player. Accepted prices and deep pocket first time buy in so they will be stuck in collection mindset regardless of if they play or not. Pull them into the cycle whether a guppie or whale. Why do I need to purchase new models when I have dozens of armies, hundreds of models, and a working ruleset? Old world seems just like a slow drip kicker to push gamers/collectors into AoS, which I've already bought into more then I care to admit. I tell new old world players one word, Mordheim.
I agree with every problem you pointed out. However, every game system falls into those same issues. You will have a hardcore fan base, casuals, and potentials. One major difference which I absolutely agree on is that the old models and lack of production hurt the system. Also though as a heresy player myself, when are we getting plastic upgrade kits for mk 4, mk 5, mk 3… etc where can I go buy assault marines at…. all these systems have problems. The main one being GW lack of production and ability to keep things in stock. It plagues all their systems. Not defending it at all, I think they need to scale up massively in production to keep up with demand. All that said however I think the old world will end up being ok… to say it's dead in the first month of release is ludicrous.
GW essentially replaces its fanbase every 3 to 5 years now it seems and a lot of people don’t have the pattern recognition to understand the pump and dump business model they’ve pursued.
Kings Of War. OPR Age Of Fantasy: Regiments. Two complete systems(one of them free) with massive faction support sitting right there. The "GW Only" mindset really is something else.
Some old minis are still ace. Them Black Orcs is always classic.
EDIT: My theory is the target audience for ToW is dads (who already have a collection) but will buy some new stuff for their kids.
I think videos like this would benefit greatly from a better understanding of formal argumentation and how it works. I noticed in the comments of the last video you thought some people who disagreed with you weren't addressing your points, but most of what you think are points, are all actually just conjecture. And they don't amount to an argument, because they aren't properly connected to support each other. When people make videos like this they need to start with their conclusion, what idea are you advancing as true, and that idea needs to be broken down and explained as simply as possible. So that would start with strictly defining what one would mean if they say, for example, "The Old World is dead on arrival." What very specifically is meant by that? And I've seen lots of Youtubers use very bombastic language in their original statement, the argument they're forwarding in a video, only to then go on and be forced to pare it down and down and down until they're left with an argument so small it could dance on the head of a pin. Yes it's true and valid, it's just totally unimportant because it is so small.
Then when you've established the point you're forwarding, each argument you make for it, can then be directly made to support that point. And judged by the audience cleanly in that regard. And then you'll have a legitimate counterpoint if they don't address your actual valid points. But the onus is always on the person forwarding an argument. A vague central idea, which then you pull a dump truck full of random concerns and worries up to and dump all over it, does not reach the bar. Simply throwing out a concerns and demanding people disprove them or else you're right and they're wrong, is really just saying you graded your own paper and you gave yourself an A+. You have to show that GW not having a Wood Elf in stock actually mean what you think it means, and only once you've done that do you have a valid point that a person can, or can be expected to, counter. Both these last videos, they're fine as far as Reddit-level argument and debate goes, "I think this, unless you can convince me I'm wrong, you're wrong!", but they aren't arguments and there's nothing to debate. It's just opinion and conjecture.
But you see Macca, I can buy the whole Beasts of Chaos faction, there is obviously no issues with the system because Beasts of Chaos are the only faction in The Old World.
I think the main point that can be brought up is that unlike the specialist games this is a main game, its at the same scale as 40k and Aos as of scope, but obviously not as in miniature support.
But being on the scale and with the interest on the scale of the main games such as HH, Aos, and 40k I think there is a pretty good argument that it has more legs then the a game like blood bowl or even Imperialis
Speaking as a prospective High Elf player who lucked into trading for the relevant half of an Island of Blood set (less than half the models they need, not to mention having to bum off of a fellow player for the new larger bases), it's a let-down. I really wish GW had their shit in order for game launch across all "officially supported" factions, but seeing as that's not the case I get the feeling I'm going to be playing the waiting game. Time will tell if there's sufficient model support from GW for me to consider them an option, or if I must go the route of recast or 3D-print.
Until then, I've got Luna Wolves and Bolt Action Japs to build and paint in the meantime.
This "Old world is dead" is a great clickbait topic these days on YouTube for some people. Only thing missing from the formula is a "better" and more carchy thumbnail.
I am a new player and the return of TOW has allowed me to collect the models – including the legacy factions. I think old models definitely have a dedicated crowd and audience- hence why MTO is insanely successful.
Not that I was ever much of a fantasy player(was till RT dropped) your thoughts are exactly WHY I want ZERO to do with "whatever they're calling it" & yet mostly enjoy 30k. 40k is a dumpster fire(only play w my OG homie) & I've found some "solace" in necromunda & Titanicus, yet 30k has made me WANT to play in a way the others havent.
One again, Salty Circle is right. Old World is dead on arrival. Honestly, this must be a dream come true for Kings of War, first fantasy is killed, and now a corpse of a system is paraded out.
I'm sorry mate, I love your approach and content, but you are showing your lack of knowledge here on several aspects – especially on army building. You can build very varied types of armies, you kept referring to the Tomb Kings, you can easily build at least 4 types of very distinct armies that all play in a different way with them and most armies have a similar potential, some even more and this is without their Arcane Journals. Doesn't really affect the whole point, with which I do have contentions as well, but still you are just not right about that. Sure, it's not as much as the space marines in a game specifically consisting of mostly marines, of course not, but still a lot more than you give credit to.
for your thoughts on "ineffective players" your entire list of what makes an ineffective player can be applied to the majority of the AoS community. Ive been playing since 2017 and i have yet to meet a sizable number of players with a fully painted army. Most i see that have paint on them are comission painted. I see a lot just buying centerpiece models and nothing else just to paint them with non gw paints. AoS has survived and been supported for 6 years on ineffective players