We are honored to present to you this new video. Oscar Dunlap (from Apologia Church) and Gabe Rench (from CrossPolitic) debated whether or not infants should be baptized outside of a profession of faith. Be sure to tell someone about this debate! We hope that it blesses you.
00:00 – Intro to debate
08:20 – Opening Statement: Gabe Rench
26:27 – Opening Statement: Oscar Dunlap
42:20 – 1st Rebuttal: Gabe Rench
47:44 – 1st Rebuttal: Oscar Dunlap
53:50 – 1st Cross-Examination
1:14:11 – 2nd Rebuttal: Gabe Rench
1:19:54 – 2nd Rebuttal: Oscar Dunlap
1:24:46 – 2nd Cross-Examination
1:45:11 – Closing: Gabe Rench
1:50:08 – Closing: Oscar Dunlap
1:55:58 – Audience Q&A
2:12:23 – Closing Prayer
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Christianity is false Islam is truth. My channel debunks Christianity.
1:09:00 Asked when Jesus says He will draw them to himself does that apply to the baptised infant? Answer: Yes.
Jesus says he will raise them all up on last day and not lose one, does that mean all baptised infants? Answer: I don't know which babies are saved and which are not. Paedobaptist conclusion: One can lose one's salvation. Jesus draws them. Jesus loses them.
Oscar kept asking how can a person participate in the covenant apart from faith? The answer is they can't! Oscar's exactly right here. However, the Bible clearly teaches that infants can have faith (Psalm 22:9 "Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.", and Luke 18:16 "But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children (literally 'infants' – paidion in Hebrew: Strongs G3813) come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God." ). It is right to trust that God sovereignly grants saving faith to covenant children, no matter how immature that faith might be. Of course, we expect that faith to mature and develop into a sound intellectual understanding of the Gospel over time.
A covenant is a stipulation that binds parties, is formalized by restipulation, and is ensured with sanctions. Not all covenants have curses; some do.
Love seeing these debates happen! The brotherhood paired with deep theological understanding is refreshing.
Excellent debate!
Here’s my question:
If God’s elect are already determined ( they are ), is the infant of an unbelieving family “less than” the infant of a believing family who supposedly entered them into “covenant”, when the infant of the unbelieving family may be elect and the infant of the believing family isn’t? I believe we are all on equal ground at the cross and no infant has special consideration because of his/her parents. Our faith is our own.
Is Gabe saying a “covenant” infant has covering if it dies when an unbaptized infant doesn’t have this covering? What if the infant of a believing family dies at birth before being baptized? Has it missed out on being part of the covenant?
I agree with Oscar. ( and scripture) Christ’s blood is the covenant. Baptism is the sign of that person’s belief and partaking of that covenant.
While I do have a clear stand on this subject, I do have a clearer understanding of where paedobaptists are coming from in their beliefs and Gabe had some good points that made me think. Which I think was the goal of this whole exercise. ❤
*Oh, and Oscar’s point of baptism of the unbelieving spouse! 🔥🔥🔥
Paedo or adult baptism are both expressions of faith in God's covenant. The temporal aspect of when and to whom it is administered is the issue of debate. Is it of faith to baptize infants or children, yes! Is it ok according to your understanding? That's the debate.
I thought baptism is something you choose to do to show people you accepted Christ
It’s not needed for salvation and Christ already knows if you have accepted him or not
A baby or even a small child could not openly know what is going on during a baptism
Pretty sure every one baptised in the holy bible are adults
And baptiso means to emerge to dip, babies don’t fully submerge into water as it’s dangerous
I do not agree with Gabe or Oscar that the Abrahamic Covenant is part of the Old Covenant; Hebrews 8 refers to the Old Covenant as being the covenant that God made with Moses. I don't believe that the Mosaic Covenant is an administration of the Covenant of Grace, but I believe that it is a republication of the Covenant of Works that God made with Adam. The Abrahamic Covenant was when the Covenant of Grace was inaugurated with Abraham in Gen. 15 and Gen. 17, which Paul seems to think when he expounds it in Galations 3 and Romans 4.
I think Galations 3:15-18 makes it clear that there were not two seeds of Abraham, but only one promised seed in Christ. All of the children were in covenant with Christ, since Christ is the head of the Covenant of Grace that was inaugurated with Abraham. Next, I would like to say that there are many prophecies on the New Covenant that explicitly say that children are in the New Covenant. ( Jer. 32:36-40; Ezek. 37:25-28; Isa. 54:13; 59:21; 61:8,9) Now, Paul says, "For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises to the patriarchs," ( Rom.15:8) which shows that Christ came to fulfill all of the promises that looked forward to the New Covenant; According to the Baptist view, Christ did not fulfill those promises. I'm sorry, but this strikes at the very heart of what Jesus Christ came to do. He came to fulfill those prophecies regarding the New Covenant that explicitly say that children are included in it because of their parents faith.
When we look at the New Testament, we see that Jesus did not push the children and infants away because they didn't have a profession of faith, but that He said, " Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God." Now when Jesus said that, He was not using using them only as an illustration of who belongs to the Kingdom of God, but rather, He was saying that the kingdom belongs to children like these, and others like them as well. Moreover, Jesus blessed the children of believers with His covenant blessing. Some might say, '' Where does it say that He baptized them,'' to which I would say that the big word is not ''baptize,'' but ''blessed.'' Look all throughout the Bible to see what it means to be blessed by God; it means to have God's name placed upon you, and to be consecrated to him.
My next text to look at is Acts 2:39, which says, " For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." I've had so many Baptists say to me that I'm not paying enough attention to '' everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself,'' to which I respond that we Presbyterians hold to election, thank you very much! Election has never been at odds with family solidarity in any of God's covenants with His people as seen in Romans 9. What Peter is saying is that the visible administration of the covenant is with believers and their children. The reason he adds, ''Everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself'' is to clarify that salvation is of the Lord as it has always been, even in the Abrahamic Covenant.(Gen 17:20-21; Rom. 9:6-13)
Finally, 1 Corinthians 7:14 says that the children of just one believing parent are holy. If we look at all of the Scriptural uses of the word "holy,'' we will find that it means to be consecrated or set apart to God. Our children are set apart to God in His gracious Covenant of Grace, and to deny them the covenant sign of baptism is to say that they are unclean. We should always look to see what the Scripture has to say about the children of believers, and we'll quickly see that the Baptist view cannot withstand it. Now I don't believe that our children are saved simply because they are born in the covenant; I believe with all of my heart that they need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. It is the duty of parents to never lead their children in presumption on account of their children being baptized, but to lead them to faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. But we can rest in the reality that God will keep His promise to save all of those who call upon His name, including our children.
I know that my comment was long, but I would like to say that I myself grew up as Reformed Baptist. I thought that I was pretty staunch in my view of baptism, but as I began to study in preparation for Bible college, I became uncomfortable with my Baptist position. The concept of a covenant was never really mentioned in my upbringing, but when I studied it very carefully, I saw a pattern in the Bible with all of God's covenants. It wasn't until I came to understand Covenant Theology that I changed my view on this issue. For anyone who is struggling with this issue, I would strongly recommend that you study Covenant Theology – not baptism. Once you understand Covenant Theology the rest will fall into place.
My Catholic mother had me baptized as an infant. When the Lord saved me in my 20's I was baptized. I couldn't imagine it being biblical that I would have just counted my infant baptism and refused to be baptized as a believer. Do people who were baptized as a baby raised in a Christian family but never believed, wasn't rebellious or disrespectful but acknowledged they just didn't believe then get converted as an adult and truly believes is there no believer baptism or a 2nd baptism?
Is there a baptism debate that does not focus on covenant for example more lutheran or catholic view.
Gabe, due to running out of time, failed to even properly define his position in his opening statement.
That sets the tone of the debate in my opinion.
Imagine being a Jew in the first century, you just had a baby boy and circumcised him on the 8th day. Then you hear the gospel and get saved and baptized, but then you have to leave your son in the old covenant because you can't baptize him. It just doesn't make sense to me. God is consistent throughout scripture and His covenants with man.
My question for paedobaptists is this: So what if I don't baptize my baby? Like, what exactly is the baby missing out on? I'm still going to raise them in a Christian way and expect that God will save them. Also, it's interesting that Gabe hesitantly says it's not a sin to NOT baptize your baby when the Westminster Confession calls it a 'great' sin. How can something be a 'great' sin when there are no clear commands, just an 'implication' from the OT?
How are you guys not ashamed and embarrassed to be debating such a rudimentary issue 2000 years into your religion?
11:43 when he said REVELATIONS (with an S) I could hear Voddie Baucham’s voice in my head saying THE Revelation 🤣
I disagree with both. Baptism now is not a necessary or required sacrament for Christians today. Let me explain. Physical circumcision has nothing to do with water baptism. Both rituals came from the old covenant (old testament) as signs to be fulfilled when the new covenant was established and consummated. John the Baptist and the Apostles helped bring in the new covenant which was inaugurated at the cross of Christ. These men were awaiting the fulfillment and consummation of this covenant within their generation as Jesus prophesied.
Until the fulfillment of the covenant arrived, they were to baptize all people that they may become priests of a new nation, the church. The Levite priests were ritually baptized and cleansed in water before they approached God in the tabernacle or temple. The book of Hebrews is clear that all believers in Christ became priests unto God with Jesus as the high priest.
The time of the fulfillment and consummation of the new covenant arrived in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple which completely severed the covenant between God and earthly Israel. Paul says that those who believe in Jesus are the Israel of faith. We are the children of Abraham, not by blood but by faith. We are the New Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem, the Jerusalem from above.
It's time we recognize that all people are saved by the blood of Jesus. Those who recognize this will be blessed immediately and those who deny this truth will experience the fire of chastisement and correction that will purify them, bringing them to God in total restoration and reconciliation.
Gabe’s point from Colossians 2 was spot on. The circumcision made with hands was a sign of what hopefully was an inward reality, but often was not. Baptism is a sign of the inward reality, but often is not. That is something both pedo and credo baptists have to realize. Sign does not always mean inward reality, but that sign does always point to Christ.
Also God’s grace can be experienced in ways other then salvation. I often hear the Baptist argument that conflates grace and salvation. It is by grace that I am saved but it is also by grace that I breathe and move. I deserve nothing good in this life. A child raised in the church who was never saved would still experience the grace of God just not to salvation.
Also I believe only in this anti-child anti-patriarchal society can we imagine a household baptism without children and not with the father guiding the families religious practices. I think being raised in a society when birth control is the norm has in some ways informed our theological presuppositions.
There’s nothing to debate. Infant Baptism? Chapter and verse? A baby can’t put his faith in the Lord Jesus.