Friends, Patrick J. Deneen is a Professor of Political Science at the University of Notre Dame and, I’d argue, one of the most thought-provoking and interesting political philosophers on the scene today. In our conversation, Professor Deneen and I discuss the failure of liberalism, the true meaning of freedom, the American project, the attenuation of Catholic identity, and more.
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Great show with two of my favourite Catholics!
Is it really the cultures fault ?? Or was the corruption of the church create massive problems in the culture?
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I find that in the absence of God a socially conscious person tends towards some vague and poorly understood equality. As the conception of equality matures the consequences of atheism also mature. The intrinsic inviolable value of human life and value evaporates. So the search begins for the grounding of that equality, which finds no real purchase until it arrives at the atomic scale. Which isn't terribly evolved. And so a cognitive dissonance begins to resound, there is no equality and yet we must pursue it. In this confusion the Will to Power begins to assert itself, which manifests as Choice. But of course equality of choice is an illusion so the Will to Power marches up the value chain of rationality until eventually it becomes a civilisational phenomenon… which grows in its imperial statute by the day, taking on the hallmarks of revolution as the empire asserts its dominion over the culture and eventually begins to resemble a police state, where the enemy of the state becomes any appeal to limitations or value judgements on Will. PRIDE month is sort of the creation of a new religion around this ethic. I think identity politics is a subset of this, where "war lords" of ideology establish footholds within society that create molecules, or even material blocks of Will and following a Darwinian type process ascend to dominance within the imperium.
Why the Church scandals are purely a Church matter? For the acts to occur, the family shepherds (Mother & Father) must have dozed off leaving the innocent children to fight the evils on their own.
In the event the parents are not fit to be shepherds, either their public education is missing or their supervisory role is lacking.
We cannot have children to dump them on the school or the Church.
In no way am I declaring some of the Church's actions as acceptable, specially when problem priests are shifted from Church to Church?
With respect to the Freedom of the Woman to chose (whether it's abortion or any other matter), why are you putting the "monkey" on the state's shoulders?
Shouldn't be the responsibility of the Church to singularity educate the Spiritual, and the state to enlarge the Freedoms of Women?
In Matthew 22:15-22, even if Our Lord Jesus Christ was addressing "the issue of taxes" (the primary function of the state), Our Lord Jesus told the Pharisees : "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God".
Wasn't Our Lord Jesus Christ's wish then to separate the responsibilities of the state and that of the Church?
Gm family and friends ❤❤❤❤
This talk is reminiscent of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 1978 Harvard Commencement Speech. In the speech Solzhenitsyn decries a society that relies on developing societal laws while ignoring the development of individual virtue. Dr. Peter Kreeft does a wonderful recall of this speech, which he was in attendance for, in a talk/video easily found for those interested. Like this video, Dr. Kreeft's analysis of that speech is a must.
Gm family and friends ❤❤❤❤
Is there any way to download the transcript for those with whom who I'd love to share this, but don't want to listen to a podcast
Just read 'Why liberalism failed' very good, I recommend it.
He is spot on when he says that these problems come from within the liberal tradition. These are not foreign problems. These ideas originated in our British tradition.
I'm teaching fifth-grade American history at a Catholic school. A spontaneous idea popped into my head. Maybe one already exists–however, it would be very helpful to have a Catholic historian write an American History textbook for children. I wonder how different it would read from the mainstream American publishers' versions.
Extremely interesting discussion.
The current ideological society appears lost and devoid of principles and values to mere standards and ideals.
Our former great state of Arizona has digressed to Calizona.
Young and middle aged parents radiate a me, myself and I mentality. One guess on how their children engage.
Tomorrow, anyone’s guess.
I'm Canadian but the discussions I hear between you and your guests help me understand at least a tiny bit some of the chaos in our present world. God bless you Bishop Barron.
I don't think classical liberalism has failed, or that it undermines community or public virtue. You can and should legislate morality, but you can't legislate virtue. That does not grow out of any action by government.
When politics has devolved into repetitious party-line talking points and memes, going over the core values and fundamental questions is much appreciated. If I were to design Prof. Deneen's thoughts for a class, I would add Archbishop Chaput's book, Things Worth Dying For, to assist the class in finding solutions — personal and societal.
I truly believe that God uses imperfect people to bring hope to the world. The Cold War was a constant presence in Americans' lives. The fears grew into what many observers believe was a full-blown emotionally charged behavior that seemed excessive and out of control in the United States. We looked at the September 11 attacks. Both towers collapsed because people built and threw grenades or bombs that practiced attack and watched atomic devastation, causing Americans to be worried about the spread of communism. The United States of America helped in the Vietnam War because of threatened their freedoms, their individuality, and their way of living then spread to Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, and the rest of Asia. We are loved by God. We are called to love like Him. The extent to which we love one another. According to the Holy Gospel, God uses people to help Him. God looks for people with a pure heart, a clean mind, and a sense of commitment. For example, Patrick J. Deneen is described as a servant who left shepherding sheep to shepherd God's people. God bless America. Jesus, I trust in You!!!
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
St. Joseph and St.
Cecilia, pray for us.
St. Cynthia, pray for us.
St. Matthew, pray for us.
St. Sarah, pray for us.
St. Anne, pray for us.
Praying for you
Cecilia Dreger and family(🕛 keep lives safe)🙏🏿Bishop Thomas and Father Raj.
Thank you once again for an inspiring talk and teaching. I guess the call to action is for us to be good men and women in our communities and to find those who already are and model our lives after them. And if by some chance we find none then we have our Saints. Thanks be to God.
Very good conversation but it’s condescending to label people who aren’t intellectual as ordinary.
So essentially, liberalism failed because liberty can only be trusted to those who have submitted their own will to that of God.
Great point @ 59:00….how is the Faith going to be alive for the average, non-intellectual Catholic? Answer: A gorgeous liturgy that breathes the air of heaven. Vide: EF.
We need more upward mobility. My father was a carpenter and I was able to go to an elite school and get a PhD. That is rare now.
Gentleman, thank you for taking the time. I loved every word, even when you both were swimming in familiar waters and then threw me into the deep end . You lost me at so many places . I had a lousy education and an even lousier formation. There were a few thoughts that came to my mind during the discussion. One was, careful what you wish for, you just might get it. The next was , as we run through this jungle of life , one is going to end up serving someone or something, and that love conquers all even when the ego and the uneducated have the inability to accept others freedoms and rights . I have no idea if I just made any sense at all . What I do know is you both had me most of the night thinking way too much . I’m not that complicated. Lol
I agree with much of the criticism discussed early in the video, particularly the current interpretation of freedom, but I’m left with questions/criticisms of my own regarding this discussion. Despite the imperfections of liberal democracy, can you not acknowledge that if it weren’t for it, you might not be freely having this discussion then broadcasting over YouTube? What style of government would you think would be better? Please tell me of a type of government that has endured history? You criticize free market capitalism, but I argue that the lack thereof in the form of crony capitalism is the obstacle to the distributist vision of Pope Leo and Chesterton. Political leaders in cahoots with industry leaders creating barriers in the form of regulations is a much bigger problem than free markets. Are you suggesting government redistribution? I think history shows us how that works out.
Much of the critique is spot on but I’m not sure that you offer much as a viable solution. I believe religious schools need to form students to live a virtuous life so that they exercise self mastery. In a land of self government, people need to learn how to govern themselves.
The Rosary
This was fantastic and made my day today.
Sorry. Nothing add to my faith .
Is it possible that the interviews can be translated into Spanish? Thanks in advance.
Well, no Catholic should be President because the President takes an oath to uphold the constitution. He isn't King.
Is his book one an ordinary person of average intelligence could understand?
Not one word about who the real masters of America are and who are manipulating liberalism of both left and right?
Codependent much?
What you have is not just privatization of religion, but of "everything": privatization into (relatively) few hands – of land, of the Commons, of public spaces, of state/governmental power, social institutions, of wealth, of the work-place …
An axiom of modernity: all goods … happiness are private … Margaret Thatcher: "There's No Such Thing as Society …"
What you have is the "freedom" of the (tyrannical) individual at the expense of other individuals' illiberality!
The historical civilizations that fail seem to decay into worship of other gods and orgies. Our god is self actualization and our orgy is sexual body counts. 70 million abortions in 50 years is pretty solid evidence of our extreme decay.
Jesus said, . .
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
John 14:6.
I did not see John Kennedy as a good Catholic. Womanizer.
Jesus was working poor. He lived the struggles that many of our brothers and sisters live through. To escape from your social responsibility, is escaping Christ.
Thank you
Dear Lord please accept me and my children and Grandchildren all to be included in the rapture that you have told us about. Please don’t leave us behind Lord Jesus. Amen
I'm not sure I'll ever understand the Catholic understanding of freedom. If anyone is willing to talk to me about this, I'd be really appreciative.
Most grateful for this thought-provoking conversation. Our culture desperately needs a course correction from radical individualism and a focus on fulfilling an individual's desires, to cultivating individual and collective virtue. Unless we recapture a shared notion of the good, the true and the beautiful, we will remain in our innumerable enclaves whose interactions are refereed by a "neutral" State.
So right around the eight-minute mark it sounds like he is making the argument that the only viable social compact, the only one that will restrain our brutish nature, Id, whatever you want to call it, is the Hobbesian model. I'll listen a bit further to see if that's what he's calling for but if it is his alternative is no better than the the one being pushed by the progressives, a top-down authoritarian system to handle us peons unable to govern ourselves. I hope that's not where he is going but he seems, at least early on, to be making the case that the Lokean model of self-government has failed because we simply aren't capable of making it work. Like I say, I'll hear him out but at least early on I have a fundamental disagreement with this guy.
Okay, I got to the 14 minute mark and that's as far as I'm willing to go with this guy. It's like he has a fundamental misreading of Hobbes and Locke and he sees Hobbes as the only way to set up a society, a philosopher king to borrow from Plato. He uses terms like utility and people being allowed to have their little bits of freedom but he fails to mention who will decide who gets what freedom. Terms matter as well. Liberalism, in it's classical sense, meant having the freedom to act on your own self-interest provided you stayed within the confines of the social compact. That's Locke. That's the system our founders put in place. Government was needed to protect life, liberty, and property, not to make sure people stayed in line like this guy is suggesting.
The commies are great at stealing terms and making them their own, nice sounding words like liberalism and progressivism. I mean who doesn't like liberty and progress right? This guy makes the mistake of using those terms as defined by the other side to make his argument. His solution is no different than obama's, a top-down bureaucracy to manage people's day-to-day transactions.
There was no internal flaw, no ticking time-bomb inside the system our founders created, it was placed there by people antithetical to representative republicanism which is the Lokean model our founders established. This guy makes it sound like our founding was closer to the French Revolution than the American one. And Bishop Barron seems to have a rather sympathetic view of Hobbes as well. Maybe he's just being agreeable, he does have a tendency to not push back during these one-on-one exchanges, but I dunno. I may have to rethink my position on him. And in case you're wondering, I'm about as conservative a guy as you are going to find, and I'm homeless from a political standpoint as a result. Democrats don't want me, republicans don't want me, MAGA doesn't want me, and the libertarians, well even if they wanted me that would be a hard no on my part. But I don't like authoritarians and I get the sense this guy sees some form of authoritarian rule, be it a government or a theocracy, as the answer. Guys like him are the problem, no matter who they pretend to represent. I'm outta here on this one.
Liberalismus delenda est.
One must parse what Prof. Deneen says very carefully. The best comment he makes is that the Founders of the American Experiment made better than they knew. Indeed, for they fused the developing Liberal tradition with millennia-old political traditions, similar to grafting cuttings from one varietal of an apple tree onto another to produce wholesome and nourishing fruit. I found it off that he does not see that the distributism he lauds implies an authority with coercive power that he rejects in the political realm. A thought provoking conversation, but not without some implications inimical to human flourishing in a pluralistic, democratic society.
This video brought me great relief as I recently decided to leave McKinsey because I felt I was surrounded by the exact sort of elites that you are talking about that have so little true impact and so separate from society (not to mention cultures of excess and unimaginable wealth disparity). It was making me sick and anxious. I had been telling myself that I wanted to move to a smaller city or community and do good there but have been very concerned that I am abandoning the responsibility to multiply the talents given to me by God. I don't know what my path will look like now but I rewatched the end of this video multiple times and I will return to it again in the future to reflect further. Thank you so so much (and please pray for me hahah)
We will indeed rekindle the "pre-Hobbesian" sense of the good. Today, evil is so flagrant, so aggressive, and so antithetical to even the average person's sensibilities, that the ground is ripe for such a change. Once again, it will take for us all to NOT STAY SILENT.
Why not redirect our faith to something new instead of outdated and mostly unrelatable myths