This video has been stuck in my head for a year, being worried about spoilers, but I just had to get it out. It’s Warcraft and Final Fantasy, sure, but it’s also about tropes. And since I know the ol’ WoW vs FFXIV video thing is a trope in itself – it’s fitting. But the more I think about these two bosses – I have to ask, are they the same thing? And why does it work with FFXIV’s Endsinger and not WoW’s Jailer?
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#FinalFantasyXIV #WorldofWarcraft #WoWvsFFXIV
Chapters
00:00 – Introduction
00:41 – What is a trope?
02:01 – The worst MMORPG trope
02:58 – World of Warcraft
05:59 – Final Fantasy XIV
17:03 – Shadowlands by Jesse Cox
20:27 – Conclusion
source
This looks pretty cool. I played WoW SL and it was just meh. I never finished FFXIV but it feels like I should finish it.
"We will stand against fate."
"No matter the cost."
"We've been here before."
"Many a time."
"Thus do we know…"
"To never give up."
"For hope will shine again."
As someone who quit wow mid shadowlands for FF14 I would've returned just to experience that fight if it was even half as good as your idea
Not to mention that there is no connection between expansions in wow:
Burning legion: We, the players (that bothered with the quest) SAW Garrosh struggle with his past and the curse that got into the orcs then Hellscream drank Mannoroth's blood. THE ENTIRE HUGE ASS QUEST CHAIN is about "Garrosh, your people is not cursed, your father broke that curse. Move on." and then he is like "ok, I think I got it."
Wotlk: Then when you go to Northrend he literally forget who the fuck are you and even has the AUDICITY to tell you that you are just some random cannon fodder that won't survive the map, like, "Garrosh, do I have to remember who the fuck got Thrall to your fucking hut!?"
Cata: Thrall goes away to do some shenanigans and puts this clown (Garrosh) in charge and he goes full blown war with everything.
Pandaria: He turns into the bad guy, makes a mess and is jailed. (players, some random adventurers) Only thing that was worth is that we see factions coming together to smack Garrosh's butt..
WOD: Hey adventurer! You are the commander now! While in reality you are commanding nothing, you are just there to solve things and are mostly charged with "what you think will work better here, here are options!"
Legion: You are no longer the commander! But now you are the leader of (class)! You get some crazy weapon that THEN you destroy. I believe you can still go to those bases?
BfA: You are nothing but some random adventurer that happened to be there?
And this is when I lost all the interest, I barely managed to reach lv 120 and I was done with that. Hell, I even fell asleep while questing. My memory is quite foggy, it's been YEARS since.
Also, all these old regions forgotten every xpack, only to be used as a "launch point" for the incoming new xpack, but once it is over you never, EVER set foot in any of them.
Something that I like about ff14 is that you get to visit almost every old zone and the story is around the WoL. You do start as some random guy that happened to be there, but once you join the scions, a whole new world open for you the player and that's great. You do not get demoted, you get friends here and there that help you whenever you can and you also help them. They literally take you to another world to save you from dying, change the course of history and you make new friends! Even if the scions are no more, you still have your friends and go on adventures with them!
Veryyy good videooo share and let the people react to this please friends 👍❤️
Hopefully, someday Blizzard figures their shit out. Man, they have lost all touch of what made people love them and their games.
unlike the jailer, Endsinger gives a chance to see how the world has become so the villain is given a second chance, and endwalker marks the End of the first chapter of FFXIV
while Shadowland jailer…… he is preparing for something far worse than him and it's the end of the Warcraft III story ??? It's probably not the end of WoW chapters (if i know there is).
I even see preach interview with Ion and he admitted Shadowland was a failure, and I love the way he decided to take some of the 14 ideas into WoW even added an easter egg the dev actually knows 14, and the Pray return to the Waking Sands easter egg is there.
waiting a colab of 2 MMO god developer to do collab and who knows what will happen if east and west meet together.
I watched this video yesterday and was like "I like Endwalker too, I agree!" but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that while I agree with the basic statement (Endsinger > Jailor), the way Jesse comes to that conclusion makes no sense. The FF14 PC is much more characterized than the WoW PC, but that's not saying a lot. Our WoL is still barely a character. If you want to look at an MMO that actually focuses on the PC, I'd argue that GW2 wins that category. The Commander actually *speaks*. Out loud. With VA. Thanks to that, they can actually participate in discussions, express opinions, even give out orders. Well, I guess Jesse is more talking about the *player*, as in the person sitting at their computer or on their couch, as being the real focus… I can sort of see that, but I don't think it's focus, personally. It felt more like an undertone to me.
But either way, I don't really see how any sort of PC focus really explains the difference between the Jailor and the Endsinger. I get that these narrative elements don't exist in a vacuum, and that the context surrounding each does matter. But if we're comparing whether the Endsinger itself or the Jailor itself is a better villain/story, I don't think it's fair or logical to say the Endsinger was better because it wasn't about her and was about you instead. At that point, you're not just comparing these two villains anymore, you're comparing the whole stories of each expansion involved. No, if I had to talk about why the Endsinger was good, I'd probably talk about how FF14 gives more time to explaining every villain's motivation, how they don't wait until after you've already killed them and then go "gotcha! that was a good guy, now this is the real villain" and instead let you be emotionally invested going in to the battle, and especially about how the Endsinger *actually was an end*, and not just another step on an endless Mario 64 staircase to a nonexistent Bowser. There was no new villain waiting behind the Endsinger, pulling all the strings or somehow being a bigger threat. (Unless you count the inevitable heat death of the universe.) We reached the top of that peak and now we can turn towards new mountains to scale. On the other hand, with the Jailor still somehow not being the ultimate villain despite apparently being behind every story that came prior to him, WoW clearly cares more about continuing the story than making a story worth continuing. It's not just that the Jailor was disappointing, it's also that we'll never take any future WoW villain seriously ever again because we're just looking for who or whatever is standing behind them.
Another huge positive for FFXIV is how extremely well their subsequent updates setup the next expansion.
All the pieces to set up the reveal in Endwalker are placed in Shadowbringers: The knowledge of why the Ancients created both Zodiark AND Hydaelyn, the knowledge of the strange sound that made everything go berserk, AN ENTIRE DUNGEON SHOWING THE DEVASTATION OF THE ANCIENT WORLD and battles against the core Ascians that worked for millenia to try to bring back their world and why.
I LOVE THIS. So much yes.
Hey Jesse, please interview McConnell. I want his take on your channel.
What you mention at the end, I think that's why everyone liked Garrosh's death in the shadowlands expansion. That shit was sick. Even for a small moment, he was the focus. It was a short scene, but it was all him bby
The thing that upset me more in FF14 is the change they did to Hydaelyn and Zodiark and the Sundering. Endwalker felt like a retcon and the Endsinger was forced in there too.
I don't play WoW so I can't say much on their end.
1:55 I feel like in Breaking Bad, Gus would be the villain saying "You fools!", and Walter White is the true Big Bad.
I haven’t even played / liked WoW since Pandaria and even I got hyped by this idea 😭
One thing that I see in Final Fantasy 14, that I really fine amazing in the story is that at the end they gave us a book ending. Just as they prayed for their saviors to save them. Now they pray to you they as their savior to save them.
The problem with WoW is that…honestly, we're not the protagonist. We're just there to watch the story unfold as part of a faction. I mean, half the time we don't even know which faction succeeded in which raid. If I recall correctly, one of the Old Gods was in canon "defeated by a group of adventurers" – that's as close as we get to being acknowledged.
What an excellent video! Thanks Mr Cox!
The most depressing fact about that whole wow ending is that I will literally now never get an endgame theme ending against the jailer with Arthas and everyone else at my side GOD DAMN IT I DIDN'T THINK I COULD BE MORE UPSET ABOUT WARCRAFT THANKS. FUCJ
Another huge piece is that Endwalker doesn't attempt to pull the same Secret Real Villain trope AGAIN. XIV's Endsinger is the actual big bad, and the writers actually allowed the Zodiark/Hydaelyn saga to FINISH.
They decided that having the readers trust them was worth more than an attempt at keeping us addicted to perpetual serialization. And I prefer XIV in part because that's a set of values I'd prefer to reward.
"…but some of WoW's best stuff has been stolen from other games!" That's why I just play the other games now LOL
I will never understand how people still play WoW. There is next to nothing redeemable about that game. The gameplay is frustrating, the story is dogshit, and the devs clearly dont care about the players/story/characters/playstyle/community. The only thing I can think of is that it is nostalgic and familiar to some people but even that can only take you so far.
the jailer is just another KAREN.
My thoughts are as follows, spoilers ahead:
Similarities:
-inserted at the very end of the story and wasn't mentioned or referenced the slightest beforehand
-both aren't believably thought out since the beginning of their canons, despite the authors wanting us to believe them to be
-one expansion villain
-totally definitely responsible for every single event and tragedy in the story
-"I'm doing it for you guys, trust me bro!"
-affects people's actions to the point of near or total mind control
-can disable a group of the strongest people ever known in Canon with ease while they're in their domain
-affects and subverts the afterlife system by removing souls from where they're supposed to go
-changes the sky to a dark red when their influence is apparent
-invades a forest
Differences:
-Endsinger actually has some justification for why they're unknown to that point in the story. It's shallow and totally destroys Venat's character for me, but it at least exists at all.
-Endsinger is only inadvertently responsible for the entire story, and isn't planted as some sort of secret mastermind all this time
-Endsinger is trying to directly kill everyone, Jailer is trying to enslave everyone
-Endsinger doesn't have some vague "bigger bad," and is far more direct in her motivations
-we actually understand Endsinger's motivations
-Endsinger is actually told decently and has a throughline from "normal person" to "cosmos-destroying lunatic"
-Endsinger has potential to start philosophical debate
-Endwalker wasn't trash overall
All in all, I'd take Endsinger any day over jailer, but the entire thing with Dynamis was so obviously shoehorned in. It also conflicts with past lore; why do primals, creatures of pure aether, get stronger when they are given prayer, which is now basically a dynamis infusion? For that matter, how would prayer even work post-zodiark? Isn't there a, quote, "aether shroud" – whose sole purpose is to stop dynamis from interacting with the planet mind you – covering the ENTIRE planet? How would it even transfer from the prayer to the primal?
Blizzard: "DONT WORRY GUYS WE'LL MAKE SURE TO DO JUSTICE TO ARTHAS SINCE WE KNOW HES A FAN FAVORITE"
also Blizzard: RETCONS ARTHAS'S ENTIRE EXISTENCE AND DILUTES HIM INTO ANOTHER "I WAS JUST BRAINWASHED KEK" VILLAIN
The Scions managed to protect you after all this time through their prayers, at the end of the game where at the beginning, their prayers and the Archon they looked up to all their lives couldn't protect you.
Ffxiv is the greatest story ever told!
"Holdup, why are we doing this at level 83?" was literally my exact reaction once we got to the moon hahaha
I think another difference between the two games is the overall message. WoW feels more like escapism and FFXIV feels more like confronting your pain and moving forward. In WoW we are some nameless champion, in FFXIV we are THE hero with a cast who support us. I mean even the trailer of EW uses the theme music from past expansions mashed together as if to say "look how far you've come and what you've done".
great video
I wouldn't describe myself as a Warcraft fan by any means, but Jessie's version of Shadowlands still would get me excited. It's interesting, cause at first, I thought that WoW had too much weird fanservice, like the Anduin moment, but I realized after watching this video, it wasn't too much fanservice, it was just misplaced and misused. If we found Anduin's father in Maldraxxus or Bastion and had him literally be there as we fought him, had dialogue lines thrown in and stuff, it would make so much more sense and it would be so much more hype! Imagine Arthas confronting the Jailer about domination in some way during the final fight, or having Ysera show up and have a moment with Alexstrazsa. I think that's the biggest think about WoW that bothered me, there is so much emotional meat they can serve, but they just, don't?
"It's our second phase." absolutely floored by this piece of information. I'd never thought about it this way and that's fantastic.
#GarroshDidNothingWrong
I actually like the comparison between the Jailor and Meiteon. Both of them are villians that were not nessasarally forshadowed before, introduced, and dealt with all within a single expantion. Yet Meiteon worked for more people than the Jailer did.
The primary difference I feel is two fold
1. While we didn’t know of Meiteon’s existance before Endwalker, the story was written in such a way as to be able to include her without retconning other elements of the story. So the reveal of her being behind it all is more integrated to the story, rather than the Jailer’s inclution, who was shoehorned haphazardly into arguably the best story Wow’s ever told (the Lich King).
2. Despite only knowing her for like a quarter of a patch, we learn quite a lot about Meiteon and spend quite a bit of time with her. We learn to care about her through here quirky behavior and love of carmel apples despite not being able to eat for some reason(?) on Elpis before she begins wishing for the apocalypse, and then the rug is pulled from under us when it is revealed that “yes, she is causing all of this.” Later on when we go to Ultima Thule, we learn of Meteion’s (now Endsinger’s) current worldview, specifically in the Dead Ends dungeon. Not only that, but because of the theme of the story as a whole, Meteion has different characters with similar issues that go about it either the same, or differently in the form of Amon (who agrees with her fully), Vanat (who is ideologically opposed), and Zenos (who agrees somewhat, but does not agree on the conclution). The Jailer gets a total screentime in the entirty of Shadowlands of like… 20 minutes. Nowhere near enough time to develop his chatacter and give players the chance to care.
I think the best way I put 14's main villain to a WoW friend was. "The 14 devs pmuch confirmed the universe is leading to an eventual heatdeath, but there's this tiny bird with depression from our planet that started expediting it because she got sad and scared."
"..So an existential crisis was your big bad?"
"Yup."
Edit: Also that ending phase, Our Phase 2? I love getting it in roulette and saying 'Welp.. Endsinger failed her DPS check.' XD
You finish Endwalker and you feel fulfilled. Your duty is finished, you got the job done. And as a player, instead of feeling ready to quit, you now crave for new adventures, freed from the burden of saving anyone or fighting for a cause. You are an adventurer again, just like how you started in ARR, and there is a myriad of possibilities waiting for you.
In WoW you just fought the villain of the week, who was the precursor to some even bigger, more vague big bad guy. yay…
That's the difference. 14's devs weren't afraid to bring a conclusion to the story, whereas WoW's devs felt like they wanted to keep the players on the same treadmill that they've always been on.