The idea that capturing one bridge would end the war by Christmas is outrageous. It’s a completely unrealistic scam. The plan was totally flawed and half-baked and doomed from the start. Montgomery knew 2 SS divisions were garrisoned around Arnhem and failed to tell his troops. And the British were too poor to supply working radios. The multiple failures by Montgomery’s headquarters directly led to thousands of casualties. I’m surprised at how much attention this massive failure continues to generate. The British should be embarrassed and ashamed at the way this battle was planned and carried out.
A bit of reality.. the only planning failure was the last bridge at Arnhem, not the closer ones which were captured quickly and on schedule. Of course, the troops sent in had very little effective anti-tank weaponry. Lastly, the large Parachute Divisions had been highly trained but separated out from the mainstream British Army.
That meant by late 1944, having seen zero combat, there was an awful. awful realisation among the Paras – they were going to miss the war completely, do no fighting, get no medals, and become the objects of ridicule – compared to the hard-fighting County regiments who'd fought all the way from Normandy since June 1944.
On the 10 mile bike path that connects Arnhem and Nijmegen there's a monument marking the furthest extent of allied ground forces towards Arnhem. It is nearer to Arnhem than it is to Nijmegen, and from it the taller buildings in Arnhem city center are visible. Just shows what a close thing it was. And yes, even though the failure to take the bridge at Arnhem was a disaster for everyone in the northern part of the Netherlands, followed as it was by the 'hunger winter', Dutch people still celebrate it and thank the allies for their efforts.
You have to remember that following the Normandy landings and the breakout across France the allied populations had an expectation that the war would be over by Christmas. By late summer the allies were on the German border, Eisenhower and the allied generals were under increasing political, civilian and newspaper editorial pressure to 'get the job done' . Hodges in the centre was getting stuck in the Hurtgen and sustaining heavy casualties. Patton in the South was floundering around outside Metz, both were going nowhere. So when Monty presented his plan of 'Market Garden' it was the only straw that Eisenhower had to please the politicians and public. Having romped across France the allies were suffering from what the Japanese call 'victory disease'. The disaster that unfolded shows that well.
The Americans wrecked market garden, they didn’t go into Nijmegen when they landed, as ordered, as was the plan, thereby giving the Germans the opportunity to roll up into the city and defend it with a greater number of forces & vehicles. So why did Gavin not follow orders? Why didn’t he understand the significance of his orders? Were the Americans reluctant to permit a British success? These things are all about egos. It isn’t the first time big egos got forces killed on their own side…
The best book I've read so far regarding Arnhem was William F Buckingham's Arnhem, Beevor's book was a let down overall it came across as a series of anecdotes strung together, I'm going to have to buy Al's book and see if there's anything new, I have relatives living there and it's quite true the people of Arnhem really do fly the flags.
The English were obsessed with v1 and v2 on the dutch coast and never arrived there, while the u.s. took the Ruhrgebiet after Christmas. The British were never good at choosing priorities. It is part of their geography I suppose.
Al Murray needs to switch careers. Pub Landlord OK, but his cultural and historical outlook is very engaging. His series on German history/psyche is spot on.
This battle (along with the bomber command offensive) has captivated me since my earliest memories. Knowing that people you love had actually been there just ads another dimension to it . I can't wait to read als new book.
In response to @chelseachelseaboy below I agree about Beevor's book. It did feel rather disjointed to me. I have had Buckingham's book on my shelf unread for quite a few years (like many books that I buy and really intend to get round to reading). Having read your comment I will ensure it gets read in the very near future along with, I suspect Al Murray's book!
I would imagine that a divisional defeat does not compare with an army defeat….. 30,000 Japanese defeated a British army of 120,000 at Singapore…..thats what I call a defeat.
Reading Martin Middlebrooks Arnhem right now which is excellent, but fascinating to hear Murrays counter argument that the chosen LZs were the only real option, its the 3 routes to the bridge and the splitting up of the force that were folly.
My grandfather was British parachutist who fought at the Battle of Arnhem he survived the battle but spent the rest of the war in a P.O.W camp in Germany and after the war he would return every year back to Arnhem and was always welcomed back by the people of Arnhem
Al Murray is always worth a watch and now a book…good fella …knows his stuff and has a good time…would be great if Al would actually stand up for pub landlords…the attack on pubs by the Starmer government reminds of the PURITAN AGE …burning witches next…British Labour party has been infiltrated by Islamists and have become dependent on their vote ..Pubs are HARAM .
Maybe if we stopped talking about maths as all being about structure and order and pointed out that maths can just as much be about disorder and unpredictability people would start to see the appeal.
I disagree. All nations suffer a defeat but "greatest" would mean there were no irredeemable factors. Arnhem cemented the reputation of the Paras above and beyond all Parachutists on the Allied side.
The second world war just seemed to be a series of defeats for the UK, its amazing that somehow we won? Anyway what do you think of operation Sealion 2 being reactivated all along the UK's south coast?
Checks Al's study to mine own. Drum Kit- check. Myriad of photos – check. Military Figurines in the background -check. Denison Smock hanging from his chair – Ah you got me there. Well played Sir.
As a defeat it pales compared to Trobruk and Gazala, Crete, Singapore and Dunkirk. What it does represent was a massive missed opportunity in trapping an entire German Army in Western Holland and making the subsequent Scheldt ops 'easier' as well as outflanking the West wall and directly threatening the Ruhr valley (if nothing more than in the minds of the German high command).
A lot of people are very critical that the battle took place but my only critique is that it failed.
Al Murray? The answer is always no.
The idea that capturing one bridge would end the war by Christmas is outrageous. It’s a completely unrealistic scam. The plan was totally flawed and half-baked and doomed from the start. Montgomery knew 2 SS divisions were garrisoned around Arnhem and failed to tell his troops. And the British were too poor to supply working radios. The multiple failures by Montgomery’s headquarters directly led to thousands of casualties.
I’m surprised at how much attention this massive failure continues to generate. The British should be embarrassed and ashamed at the way this battle was planned and carried out.
Arnhem? Nought but a minor setback compared to the defeat at Singapore-as an Oxford graduate, Murray should know that.
“Britains are magnetically drawn culturally to defeat, it seems.”
Britons*
A bit of reality.. the only planning failure was the last bridge at Arnhem, not the closer ones which were captured quickly and on schedule. Of course, the troops sent in had very little effective anti-tank weaponry. Lastly, the large Parachute Divisions had been highly trained but separated out from the mainstream British Army.
That meant by late 1944, having seen zero combat, there was an awful. awful realisation among the Paras – they were going to miss the war completely, do no fighting, get no medals, and become the objects of ridicule – compared to the hard-fighting County regiments who'd fought all the way from Normandy since June 1944.
Loved this pod, great history outlooks… please keep these coming. Al Murray much respect also.
On the 10 mile bike path that connects Arnhem and Nijmegen there's a monument marking the furthest extent of allied ground forces towards Arnhem. It is nearer to Arnhem than it is to Nijmegen, and from it the taller buildings in Arnhem city center are visible. Just shows what a close thing it was. And yes, even though the failure to take the bridge at Arnhem was a disaster for everyone in the northern part of the Netherlands, followed as it was by the 'hunger winter', Dutch people still celebrate it and thank the allies for their efforts.
You have to remember that following the Normandy landings and the breakout across France the allied populations had an expectation that the war would be over by Christmas.
By late summer the allies were on the German border, Eisenhower and the allied generals were under increasing political, civilian and newspaper editorial pressure to 'get the job done' .
Hodges in the centre was getting stuck in the Hurtgen and sustaining heavy casualties. Patton in the South was floundering around outside Metz, both were going nowhere.
So when Monty presented his plan of 'Market Garden' it was the only straw that Eisenhower had to please the politicians and public.
Having romped across France the allies were suffering from what the Japanese call 'victory disease'. The disaster that unfolded shows that well.
Where was the air force ?
The Americans wrecked market garden, they didn’t go into Nijmegen when they landed, as ordered, as was the plan, thereby giving the Germans the opportunity to roll up into the city and defend it with a greater number of forces & vehicles. So why did Gavin not follow orders? Why didn’t he understand the significance of his orders? Were the Americans reluctant to permit a British success? These things are all about egos. It isn’t the first time big egos got forces killed on their own side…
Love Al Murray
Robert Cain VC
not sure it's that great compared to say, a defeat like Gallipoli or Castillon.
Denison smock casually draped over Al’s chair! Love the ‘Walking the ground” YouTube channel👍
The best book I've read so far regarding Arnhem was William F Buckingham's Arnhem, Beevor's book was a let down overall it came across as a series of anecdotes strung together, I'm going to have to buy Al's book and see if there's anything new, I have relatives living there and it's quite true the people of Arnhem really do fly the flags.
The English were obsessed with v1 and v2 on the dutch coast and never arrived there, while the u.s. took the Ruhrgebiet after Christmas. The British were never good at choosing priorities. It is part of their geography I suppose.
RIP The Gronert Twins.
Al Murray needs to switch careers. Pub Landlord OK, but his cultural and historical outlook is very engaging. His series on German history/psyche is spot on.
It was a poorly designed and even more poorly executed plan. Montgomery should have been relieved after this awful mess.
My old man now deceased at near 100 years of age was there. Tony Orsi was his name. Bless him and his compadres for his bravery and efforts.
This battle (along with the bomber command offensive) has captivated me since my earliest memories. Knowing that people you love had actually been there just ads another dimension to it . I can't wait to read als new book.
In response to @chelseachelseaboy below I agree about Beevor's book. It did feel rather disjointed to me. I have had Buckingham's book on my shelf unread for quite a few years (like many books that I buy and really intend to get round to reading). Having read your comment I will ensure it gets read in the very near future along with, I suspect Al Murray's book!
I would imagine that a divisional defeat does not compare with an army defeat….. 30,000 Japanese defeated a British army of 120,000 at Singapore…..thats what I call a defeat.
Reading Martin Middlebrooks Arnhem right now which is excellent, but fascinating to hear Murrays counter argument that the chosen LZs were the only real option, its the 3 routes to the bridge and the splitting up of the force that were folly.
I'd like to leave a comment, Al.
Got to say Al what about the polish paratroopers who also dropped and fought at Arnhem
My grandfather was British parachutist who fought at the Battle of Arnhem he survived the battle but spent the rest of the war in a P.O.W camp in Germany and after the war he would return every year back to Arnhem and was always welcomed back by the people of Arnhem
Al Murray is always worth a watch and now a book…good fella …knows his stuff and has a good time…would be great if Al would actually stand up for pub landlords…the attack on pubs by the Starmer government reminds of the PURITAN AGE …burning witches next…British Labour party has been infiltrated by Islamists and have become dependent on their vote ..Pubs are HARAM .
My 3 comments regarding Arnhem not being a defeat have been removed.
Singapore
The best of British bumbling!😂
I’m off there this Friday for the 80th Anniversary. RIP Lads, see you there.
my dad was N.S. 23rd P.F.A. 2 para
Good God, he's a drummer!
Maybe if we stopped talking about maths as all being about structure and order and pointed out that maths can just as much be about disorder and unpredictability people would start to see the appeal.
Note the Denison smock chair cover!
I disagree. All nations suffer a defeat but "greatest" would mean there were no irredeemable factors. Arnhem cemented the reputation of the Paras above and beyond all Parachutists on the Allied side.
But why was it a defeat ? The failure of the 82nd to take Nijmegan bridge on day one as per plan ?
The French Foreign Legion commemorates a defeat every April: Camerone Day.
The second world war just seemed to be a series of defeats for the UK, its amazing that somehow we won? Anyway what do you think of operation Sealion 2 being reactivated all along the UK's south coast?
Checks Al's study to mine own. Drum Kit- check. Myriad of photos – check. Military Figurines in the background -check. Denison Smock hanging from his chair – Ah you got me there. Well played Sir.
As a defeat it pales compared to Trobruk and Gazala, Crete, Singapore and Dunkirk. What it does represent was a massive missed opportunity in trapping an entire German Army in Western Holland and making the subsequent Scheldt ops 'easier' as well as outflanking the West wall and directly threatening the Ruhr valley (if nothing more than in the minds of the German high command).
A lot of people are very critical that the battle took place but my only critique is that it failed.
Bring up the PIAT!