The “English” Army. A WWII Myths show
With Paul Woodadge
Part of our WWII Myths series of short shows
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDG3XyxGI5lAd734s1i7YIMbOf8PS5Shz&si=lZONvxOH4APbWnDZ
Who made up the British Army in WWII? Another myth-busting show looking at the use of language
This is a new type of show for the channel. Our historian will examine a popular claim made about the Second World War and either confirm or debunk it. There probably won’t be time for questions from viewers but we hope the shorter length will be popular.
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For anyone wondering when in history Gurkhas fought AGAINST the British. The Anglo-Nepalese war was fought between the Gurkha Kingdom of Nepal and the British East India Company as a result of border disputes and ambitious expansionism of both belligerents. The war ended with the signing of the Treaty of Sugauli in 1816.
Also, I made the "Principality" comment about Wales sarcastically, which I probably shouldn't have done. Although in Welsh history there have been times it has been referred to as such, it isn't a Principality, even though there is a Prince of Wales. Ultimately this all rather proves my point about how these notions of labels can change with use, circumstances and preference
Trigger warning for non-English Britons.
"I heard the news today, oh boy,
the English Army had just won the war."
My 2p FWIW. One third of Indian Divisions were British Regiments as a result of that very unpleasant contretemps in 1857. The British provided the officer cadre of the African Divisions. Plus we're not looking at all those non-Divisional formations like independent tank Brigades, Commandos, Air units, plus masses of logistics formations, etc. All that infamous 'long tail'.
I think 80% non-British is a bit of a reach, and looks a bit cherry picked from that Wiki page. But yeah it was probably more than 50%. I bet Rob Lyman knows for sure!
Australia still considered itself to be part of the Empire in WWII hence the use of terms such as the "Australian Imperial Force" and "Empire Air Training Scheme" (Canadian preference was the "Commonwealth Air Training Plan") so the DUKE term seems like an anachronistic rewriting of history to me. Australians at Tobruk, Greece or Syria in 1941 would have said that they were fighting for the "British Empire".
At that time, there was only one British infantry division in the Mediterranean in the form of the 7th/6th/70th division that was renamed twice in 1941 in order to give the impression that there were more British forces in the region than there actually were.
It’s a good point you make about the make up of ‘local’ regiments. I’m following 2/5 Leicestershire through Italy, and there are 21 men buried in the CWGC cemetery at Coriano. Only 4 or 5 of those men are actually from Leicestershire, the rest are from all corners of the British Isles. They were reinforced from flak units that were no longer needed in Africa, and turned in to a truly ‘British’ force.
So you're telling me that I've been mislead all these years?
"I saw a film today, oh boy
The English Army had just won the war
A crowd of people turned away"
Woody, well done and I learned a lot. Thanks 👍
👍
If you're counting Northern Ireland soldiers then you should be saying the UK army. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain.
My pet hate is when units not from England , Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland get called "British"
Excellent! Although I knew most of this, I still learnt so much more.
Gurkhas wore the slouch hat tilted to the right and the Gharwal rifles wore the hat to the left😂
For some reason. My Great Uncle was a volunteer and from West London but went straight to the 5 bttn Wiltshire Regt who were a part of the senior Brigade of 43rd Wessex Division. Neither Wiltshire or Wessex. The Wessex Division also contained a Middlesex Rgt bttn.
Another Family member. WW1. Early volunteer. Signed up in Shoreditch in 1914 but ended up in 1st bttn East Surrey Regt. A lot of the East Surrey's appear to have been recruited in Bermondsey.
I'm not talking about later replacements either. You'd have thought that a lot of West and North London boys would've been in the catchment area for Middlesex or East Surrey's and South East Londoners should've gone to the West Kent Rgt or something like that. Just for the sake of local identity.
Thank you for tackling WW2 myths. Hope also talk about myths regarding role of China and India
Interesting topic
Another topic you could possible cover on one of these short clarification episodes is the difference between the Wehrmacht and the Heer. It constantly surprises me the number of people who don't know, but when I suppose you add the LFDs, the Fallschirmjäger, the The Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1. Hermann Göring, and whatever else, you can see where confusion arises.
You can understand the frustrations of non-English soldiers when they get labelled 'English'.
Conversely, its often frustrating being English and reading the the Generals used colonial troops at the sharp end more than British units in both wars. Opens a can of worms! Do we want to go down that rabbit hole as Woody would say! Amongst British Infantry in WW1, 20% died (1 in 5), varying from 24.6% chance of death for Tommies (English), 26.4% chance for Scots, to 28% for elite divisions such as the Grenadier Guards. The total casualties in WW1 of the British 29th Division amounted to something like 94,000, with Gallipoli alone accounting for 34,000. This must be, if not a record, among the highest totals in any division.
Australian Rhys Crawley's article "Marching to the Beat of an Imperial Drum" highlighted that in WW1 Great Britain supplied 66.4% of British Empire troops but suffered 78.8% of all British Empire casualties, the Canadians supplied 7.3% of all Empire troops and suffered 6.6% of all Allied casualties, Australia supplied 4.8% of all troops but suffered 6.8% of all casualties, New Zealand supplied 1.5% of all troops but suffered 1.8% of all casualties, South Africa supplied 2.7% of all troops but suffered 0.6% of all casualties, India supplied 16.8% of all troops but suffered 3.7% of all casualties, and other colonies supplied 0.4% of all troops and suffered 1.7% of all casualties. Perhaps that helps dispel some of these myths?
Concurrently, it is fair to point out that the largely volunteer divisions from the Commonwealth in both wars were very good divisions, in WW2 such as 1st, 2nd, 3rd Canadian Divisions, 2nd New Zealand Division, 7th and 9th Australian Division, 4th Indian Division, whereas Britain's elite troops, comprising around 50,000 troops were either in the Guards Division (Grenadier, Coldstream, Irish, Scots, Welsh Guards), or the specialist Commando units or 1st or 6th Airborne Divisions. Certain regional divisions also were highly regarded – 50th Northumbrian, 51st Scottish Highland, 43rd Wessex, 52nd Scottish Lowland, 49th West Riding, 15th Scottish Division, 59th Staffordshire, 53rd Welsh, as well as those with a mixed regional flavour such as the 3rd, 70th (originally the 7th), and 78th. And the 7th Armoured Division (Desert Rats) were highly valued.
Don't Forget the New Zealanders! And the famous 20th Battalion (Pakeha White Battalion) and the 28th Battalion (The Māori Battalion) plus all the other Pakeha (white) Battalions; 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th..all Pakeha Battalions………..and then we had the mighty Māori 28th Battalion. Then add our Navy and Airforce, many of our pilots flew for the RAF rather than the RNZAF.
And our Aussie mates, it is great to celebrate our togetherness, not only the UK; but more importantly the United Commonwealth. Yes the massive contributions of India, and Pakistan, Kenya, South Africa, Fiji etc.
Great content and informative. Thanks Eric
I want a head gear series!
And I really like your channel, very informative and I always learn something.
Well done! Now explain what is deferred tax! 😅
My Grandfather was from Keighley in Yorkshire, he was called up in 1940 and served in the RASC as a driver and then sergeant, and between 1940 and ‘44 he was stationed in the UK. He then was commissioned and was transferred as a logistics officer to a battalion in the 51st Highland Division. He went over the Mulberry Harbour on D + 6 or 8 and fought across NW Europe. I have photos of him in his Tom o’ Shanter.
Oh dont get me started on the whole "english forces" thing. Annoys me alot. Even harking back to the Napoleonic wars, during waterloo the duke of wellingtons forces comprised of 67000 men of which 9000 were Irishmen, 15000 Germans, 17000 dutch and belgian. And the remainder were a mix of scottish, welsh and english. And the prussians won the battle in the end. Old Ridley forgot all that. Just to clarify, Northern Ireland is not technically a country either, it has no flag, no constitution, no passport and has a devolved government.
I had a wee English born mucker , sadly passed on now. He was in the reformed 2nd Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,a Scottish regiment. The original Bn. had been captured in Singapore in 1942. He told me that at the time of Operation Epsom 1944,the Battalion was predominently from Yorkshire, in England. Meant to mention, he also told me that he was in the int Platoon and it was commanded by Canadian.
Pointless video, who doesn't know this already?
Most of the world just call anyone from the UK English as you can hear in any of their documentaries which must be so annoying and also disrespectful to the hundreds of thousands of Scots, Irish and Welsh who fought and died in the British army to then be called English.
NO MATE, I'M NOT WONDERING, BECAUSE I WAS EDUCATED IN A SECONDARY MODERN SCHOOL IN THE 1940'S AND 50'S, WHEN THEY WERE PROUD OF BRITAIN, AND IT'S EMPIRE.
THE GURKAS WERE SO IMPRESSED WITH ( ACTUALLY IN AWE, OF BRITAINS ARMY ) ) THEY VOLUNTEERED TO FIGHT FOR US.
I have an idea about the Union Flag and how to represent Wales, and that is to change the colour of the white cross underneath the cross of St George into a green and white cross.
I'm also English but live in france,, well my father was and served in the Royal Engineers. My mother Latvian, willing guest worker for the Nazis in Kiel. When the British army arrived in Kiel at the end of the war, she was not raped, which the Russians would have done, (no love lost Latvia/Russia) The soldiers took over her flat, stole her mattress. When she asked who they were the answer was…. We're the eighth army.
Look… It’s great for nerds and the detail-obsessed to know the minutiae of National and Unit differences, but how many of us actually believe the “myth” that all Allied , or even-all British-and-Dominion troops were “English”?
A few Germans, French or Americans? They’ve always been a bit off-kilter anyway.
People from Japan 3:32 wouldn't have been joining the British Army in WWII. Japan was an (AXIS) enemy nation in WWII. Any Japanese would have been either killed or interned.
The issue is moot, The United Kingdom of Great Britain has been so since 1707. Every one with a British passport is British.
Thanks for this episode Paul. All I can say is: BLIMEY!! 😂 I most certainly will be watching this many times over to understand better. One question I have is: was there a time when a unit like the KOSB, for example, were manned strictly by Scottish troops? Thanks again and I really like these "Myths" shows!
We don't use the term British isles, ever!
The name of my country is Ireland. Only if you are speaking in Irish can you call my country Eire.
You are very confused!
The title of this Doco was "ENGLISH" ARMY…. and NOT BRITISH.
There is no 'England Cricket Team' rather it should be referred to as the 'Commonwealth Cricket Team'
I had an uncle who was KIA in the 53rd (Welsh) Division while trying to capture Caen. The amount of times it pisses me off when (usually American) refers to the English Army. Thank for the video where you clarify the breakdown of the nationalities of the British Army along with Commonwealth Empire.
In French formally Les forces Britanniques, Armée Britannique, les britanniques . However colloquially armée anglais, anglais. But because of the auld alliance the Scottish regiments would be les escossais.
How's this for more confusion. My Grandfather was born in western Canada in the late 19th century, fought with the CEF in WW1, and lived until 1977. To his dying day, he said he was British. An additional note, Canadian passports said Canadians were British subjects well into the 20th Century.
Try telling us Welsh we are 'technically a Principality'. We are 'technically a Principality' under ENGLISH Law, not our own, due to the results of a war of conquest in the 13th Century. We have a very different idea of our place than 'technically a Principality'.
Fun fact, you know why Wales is 'technically a Principality'? It is because the last King of a (mostly) unified Wales chose the word Princeps as his title. Princeps of course being the root of Prince. He did not choose King because as he said, there are many Kings but there will be only one Princeps. Wales is a 'Principality' because of a matter of Semantics….