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Garphill Games games look pretty much finish when they do their campaigns. Also, I believe that IV Studio were much more advanced in their development with their latest 2 campaign Mythic Mischief and the titan box for Moonrakers.
It's always fun to back a game and received earlier or close top its estimated shipping date, but unfortunately, it's not the norm in the industry.
Mauricci J. Designs (they make hexplore it) I only heard of them by the 3rd volume and backed the 4th volume.
They were mostly on track from Art to Finalization. Production was pushed back by 2 months due to hiccups due to the manufacturer (?) Which affected shipping from China.
The biggest issue they had was the VAT because the EU slapped some new rules right around the time the crowdfunding ended and the company was unable to give a concrete amount on how much the VAT will be which pissed off some of the EU backers.
Next issue was the fulfillment because first, they got pushed aside because someone paid more for the containers and then the port/customs/distributor delays. Fulfillment was supposed to start in June 2022 but people reported that theu got theirs beginning late July.
I am in Asia so I got mine around August/September. All in all 2 months delay on fulfillment was not too bad.
NEXUS by D-Verse. It’s run by one guy, was expected to deliver in Q1 of 2023, and wouldn’t you know it? I’ve already gotten my copy.
These days I see another campaign go up with a 1 year delivery (they all do), I just scoffed and see if they have kept that bs timeline with their previous project.
I think this trend is prevalent mostly in the companies which have decided to make a buisiness exclusively out of kickstarter campaigns. They have no other sources of income, and usually don't even have retail deals. MG is one such company, and as many have pointed out, what this means is they get large infusions of cash with each campaign followed by nothing in-between. So when costs rise, or they decide to spend more than they planned for, there is very little (if any) cushion for that.
It takes an extremely disciplined businessperson to manage money this way when producing something with so many variables and we watched multiple companies essentially create a ponzi business when the money started to get tight. It worked out ok when they could fund one campaign after another, but that pressure just meant that they kept promoting games which were less and less finished to get that next infusion of cash. Combine that with absolutely zero accountability to the backers (who are NOT investors but simple customers at best) and no desire by Kickstarter to actually regulate it's own site, and we get this.
Im happy with both Hegemony by Hegomonic Project Games, first Kickstarter est Nov 2022, games ships this week from Atlanta, and Seas of Havoc by Rock Manor Games est. Feb 2023 games get to Miniature Market this week.
Mythwind by OOMM and Malhya by La Boîte de Jeu, are delayed around a year, but those seem to be more logistic and linguistic issues. Just started dealing with linguistic issues on a two language website my company aquired and I can say it can get time consuming quickly once you realize how much stuff needs to be translated.
All of these companies though seemed to have the majority of their mechanics and stories worked out at Kickstarter time. Unlike Mythic with Hel where they apparently still needed to write a ever expanding, scope creeping story. I'm sure it will be great; if it ever gets here.
This may be unpopular opinion, but part of this is on the backers. Plenty of creators out there are very transparent about the games being still in development. I have never once for example looked at an Awaken Realms campaign and did not realize it was still in development. You can't both expect them to show a good looking campaign that will attract backers, and have the pictures look like its still in development. People need to read, and make sure they understood what the company actually said vs what they heard.
A game being completed is the game being done and starting shipping, not a game hitting every ones door step, the word for that is delivered. It could be six months between a game delivered in Spain vs a game delivered to Alaska. And none of that delivery time has much to do with the company making the game.
There is also something to be said about delivering a reprint or card game vs a miniature game. 51st State just hit my doorstep after just over a year, but it was both a card game and a reprint. If its not a reprint expect at least a year and a half, two for games with minis. Unless the game is already produced the time line is just a guess. Sure every once in awhile someone gets it done and to you on time or before. But that is a rare exception not the rule, and probably the result of both professionalism and luck.
CMON tends to be pretty good about consistently hitting good delivery times. With the notable exception of Trudvang. Probably because they produce more so get some priority.
I 100% agree about lots of games I've backed don't have the game rules finished, much less most of the game ready. They just have the idea or maybe 1 hook but need to flesh out the rest.
I do think I found a game and creator that breaks that mold just by chance, surfing around today. I think your brain will explode when you see the kickstarter page based on your comments of other KS pages. Check out Dungeon Crusade by Groovus Games Unlimited. The KS is over, but pre-order is available. Anyway, maybe you will think that it doesn't count since this is a 2nd edition update that reprints much of what was released. But it has some updates, including a quick start guide. I didnt hear about this from anyone I followed, but I may hit the pre-order. It looks like the type of game I love playing. And he's an indy-type developer. I wish I could support more small developers that have passion and love for their games. Always iterating to make them better instead of making the cash grab and moving on to the next popular video game IP.
KOA, does Frosthaven falls into this category too?
Another great video and no you are not wrong kickstarter has been sadly misinterpreted as a deal platform instead of a risk platform because as stated by another viewer the reward is given upfront but the work come later again great video anyone needing a dose of reality for the FOMO that KS has become needs to know that you will be risking your investment and might lose it all due to the lack of responsibility of creators on the KS platform
I think the principle of Kickstarter is even worse than previously thought. Very often, when you're paid for a service before it's done (especially in art), the motivation to do a great job isn't as high as when you're paid for the service after it's done. We would probably all be offered greater individual and artistic value if payment were made for the finished product. Of course, this is not possible with board games on Kickstarter. The whole process from an idea to the finished game takes too long. Unless we are satisfied with normal dealer copies from big companies. And of course there is always the risk that the game developers will simply miscalculate, our money will disappear and we will never hold a product in our hands. Yes, crowdfunding really has its weaknesses. But again without crowdfunding there would be almost no new games and we would probably all still be sitting at the chessboard. 😉
Petersen, Grimlord, Blacklist, …
And you can think what you want of them, but the only ones who are always on schedule and keep what they promise are CMON 🤷♂️ But of course: larger financial background. But they have earned and deserve that too. I feel the least cheated by this company 😅👏
Panic Roll did a fantastic job with Townsfolk Tussle IMO. They gave you a very clear image about what you're gonna get. They haven't changed anything in very drastically manner and also most of the things (printfiles, minis etc..) were ready to go. I remember that rewievers praised the campaign for how well put togother it was for a first time publisher with the mentality of "you'll get what you see" and nothing more. I know that the shipping was delayed about half a year but that effected the EU backers mostly.
Kickstarter has a problem with backers, the people who fund it. It disempowers backers even though they carry disproportionate risk. Consequently, many are disillusioned. It's time to clean up crowdfunding & rebuild backer trust. And here's the 13-point plan how to do that …
⚖Appoint an Ombudsman – When crowdfunding creators ghost backers or do a runner, it's backers who hold the bag. An Investigative Independent Backer Ombudsman (IIBO) would have power to direct creators & Kickstarter to resolve backer issues.
🚥Publish risk dashboard – Surface Kickstarter data to inform backers of a project’s health in real time. ML comment analysis alerts to danger signs like rising backer anger. Traffic lights show if a crowdfunding project is safe to back, avoid or be cautious.
💰Align reward to risk – Backers are the only people with at-risk funds; Kickstarter & creators pay themselves first. A system that aligned project gates with funds released to the crowdfunding platform would lift accountability & incentivise it to step in.
❌Enforce project limits – In theory, Kickstarter limits how many simultaneous projects a creator runs but it’s honoured in the breach rather than observance. By strictly enforcing its own policy, the crowdfunding platform would stamp out Ponzi schemes (see below).
⚠Strengthen 'No Ponzi' policy – Amplifying the previous point, Kickstarter should enforce separation of funds between crowdfunding projects so creators can’t finance projects in production from future projects. No more paying Peter to pay … Peter.
📏 Enhance due diligence – Kickstarter should vet creators better to ensure they can reasonably meet obligations, and refuse access to its crowdfunding platform — even to previously successful creators — if they fail health checks or are Ponzi risks.
🔎Mandate gateway check-ins – Too many projects run off the rails. A fair & responsible crowdfunding platform ensures creators keep their promises. Proactively keeping Kickstarter projects on track builds participants' confidence, which benefits the ecosystem.
✍🏼Respond to complaints publicly– Kickstarter's governance is opaque at best. The crowdfunding platform has a responsibility to transparency through open & honest communication about how it handles backer concerns and complaints.
🧠Empanel Backer Advisory Group ('BAG') – Backers lack influence in Kickstarter’s strategy & operations. A backer brain trust would inform and influence the crowdfunding giant’s decision-makers to improve its policies & direction.
📝Rejuvenate Terms of Use s.4 – Even many superbackers don't know Kickstarter's policy on unfair & unconscionable creator behaviour. The crowdfunding platform should publicise ToU s4 & sharpen its language & teeth (see Ombudsman).
📢Name, shame & blackball the worst actors – Kickstarter should expose creators abusing backer trust, sanction them & share this information with other industry participants — crowdfunding, financing and fulfilment platforms such as pledge managers.
📖Publish regular transparency reports – Kickstarter should publicly list crowdfunding projects & creators that egregiously & consistently miss deadlines, don't produce, hold hostage product pledges, ghost & gaslight backers, are dishonest or of concern.
🦶Stamp out underquoting – The funding goal a creator posts on its crowdfunding page should be within 10% of what it realistically needs to deliver backers their pledges. No more dishonest low-ball sums just to claim “Funded in n minutes”.
So, I don't disagree with the sentiment expressed in this video, and I find that I don't back kickstarter that often for similar reasons. And when I do it tends to be companies that I have some trust in. There are a couple of upcoming kickstarters that I will back that still require a bit more development – more in terms of the expansions than the base game. Forgive the little "Whataboutery" or "whatcould'vebeenery" but I would say that if all kickstarters required all development to be completed before a campaign, then there might of been some great games that would never have been made. I am willing to give a little flexibility for this reason.
Nova Aetas: Renaissance by ludus magnus studios is the worst for this. They literally said on the campaign page that everything was done and they just needed to send it to the printers.
13:12 "…scam some ol'people out of money" I've been stuggleing with how to finance my game design & feed my family. I was just going to let my family starve but this solution seems far more ethical… Oh, wait, maybe WE are the old people they are scamming!
I’ve said it all before many times:
STOP crowdfunding games
If a company can’t bring a game organically to retail… then maybe they shouldn’t be developing a game at all
When you crowd fund, you take away the risk from the developer, and put it on yourself…. Which always has the potential to end badly
A good company? How about Monolith? In my experience they do all their designing and test playing before they come to kickstarter and their stuff usually delivers on time, except, of course, their original Conan game, which, to their credit, they learned many lessons from. I would continue to trust them to deliver.
Leder Games comes to mind as a company that pitches their projects as unfinished as of the time of the KS campaign.
Take a look at the Arcs campaign. They’re very communicative and upfront about the progress of the game’s development and whatnot.
Gamelyn Games hits their dates and is sometimes early. Love them
From the 150 campaigns on Kickstarter I backed over the last 10+ years DD from mythic is the first real screw up I've had.
There where some bumps and one voluntary donation in the last 2 years but over all it was mostly a rewarding time…except when DPD handle shipping then I'm always close to a heart attack
I generally appreciate your channel for your criticism, but in this case I feel you are over-generalising by claiming all boardgame crowdfunding companies do this and speak only half-truths or lies. Plenty of the comments have mentioned companies this does not apply to. I personally commend OOMM Games, Sky Kingdom Games and Far Off Games for their communication and I also agree with earlier mentions of Awaken Realms. It makes sense games are rarely done on crowdfunding (unless it's used only as a pre-order system like Garphill Games does for example). I find that pretty clear in most cases.
Of course not everyone takes care to actually read what's on a campaign page and in the updates, so I still appreciate your video to shed some more light on what it actually takes to get a game out there. However I would like it more and feel your actual point would come across better if you focused less on the "everyone's lying to you" and more on the message to improve communication on crowdfunding campaigns. That would invite more constructive discussion on what that would take.
I hope to see your channel grow and become the critical (but constructive!) voice to help bring about such positive changes in the hobby space. 😊
I am waiting on Hel. I don't really believe it will arrive.
Also getting frustrated by Dawn of Madness by Diemension.
comment #1 of 2: In the past, we pledgers usually understood that we were paying companies to design, complete and test the game. We did not understand what we now know, what you explained at the beginning of this video: that those last steps of delivery take almost a year when the game is complete. Before, maybe the companies were optimistic. Now, they are lying. -toby
comment #2 of 2: Those stretch goals are the WORST part of this lie. If a company wants me to believe they have almost finished crating a game and it is almost ready for production, how can they have stretch goals? What if only half of the stretch goals are reached? Do they have to redesign the game in that case (of course not)? What of none of the goals are reached? What if more stretch goals than expected are reached? The very idea of stretch goals is nonsense. it woujld make more sense to say, during a kickstarter campaign: "There's even more to tell you about this game. We'll tell you more after you pledge $X." -toby
Ive been pretty lucky with everything I've backed. The only thing that seems to have dragged on for ages is the Binding of Isaac expansion and giant box. I get updates on that like once a week but man does it feel like its been hanging for years. and thats only cards. But it has apparently shipped so alls well there. I almost backed Hel but thankfully I got out of that as I wasnt ready for another long long campaign game. My only Kickstarter strike was Mighty No. 9. It did deliver, but it was crap. Watching this makes me wonder why we back at all lol. oh thats right. cause I'm a sucker for mini's and colors and Sankokushin!
Half-a-Kingdom Games ran the Resurgence Kickstarter in funded in December of 2021. I got Resurgence less than 12 months later.
Lol… I own the same T-shirt you are wearing there. But I don't understand how can wear It while these temperatures… 😜
This reminded again to the whole Tidal Blades situation, like, what do you mean you only had a fourth of your game made when you made the estimate???????? What really annoys me is how much the people are willing to defend the creators on these things, like poor things, I’m sure they are trying their best, why are you being so mean to them?
I’m not saying to insult them but these people act like demanding answers is wrong.
Meh. If this is your first time backing sure be annoyed but we know the game and what is happening so most of us are not backing in ignorance of what the actual situation is. Heck, you should not back if you cannot tolerate some level of failure/risk. Board games are one of the least risky kickstarted projects. Try backing a few tech projects and see how that plays out.
I see that the smaller indie companies are doing a lot better than those huge corps. They actually make the product because their reputation depend on it. See Skytear Horde, the game developed actually fairly on time. They are giving news and updates on the current state of the game and development of the new instalment.
Yes, most of the time it's like this and I made my peace with it.
But every now and then there is a project, where timelines are either held or get moved by a month or two, which is ok in book (because there soooo many other, which deliver a year or one and a half later, if at all!).
One of these is Travis, who made all the KS projects for Aeons End (besides others). Indie Board Games almost never let me down and I'm a Aeons End backer since day 1 (and do every Aeons End Kickstarter they throw at us). Not alone this, but if you need replacements they are fast and friendly in doing so! For one of my games I asked for a replacement almost a year after I got it (because I haven't played that installment of the series any earlier and just then found out that a couple of cards were missing) and they send those replacements to me, no questions asked.
So yes, even if I have too much stuff for this game (which I love btw) I'm happy to give them my money, as I know they deliver on what they promise during their campaigns!
Earthborn games did the help us have the money to develop. They are finally printing, but it is also a card based game and not a mini based game.
I think Far Off Games is fairly upfront about the project and sets realistic funding goals.
The only companies that I can think of that seem to have a complete product ready to print and ship at the time of crowdfunding are Flat Out Games (Verdant, Cascadia) and Underdog Games (Trekking the World, Trekking through History). Notably, these are in a bit of a different category than the massive, campaign, miniature games which seem to be the primary culprits of this practice.
GMT P500 system. They list the games that they are developing. If you are interested you can pre order it at a discounted price. You are not charged at this time. The more interest in the game (preorders) the quicker (albeit still slow) it goes through development and testing. When it is ready to go to print you are notified of the date for charging for the game plus shipping. You will receive your game within 12 weeks of being charged at most, often in about a month.
As a customer you know at all times how the game is progressing yet keep your money until final production starts. As a developer they have security with clear knowledge of the sales for each individual game and production costs are covered accordingly.
IV Studios is the exception. They make great, high quality product and normally deliver early. Moonrakers /Titan and all the bits are a phenomenal example of healthy, truthful, wonderful Kickstarting.
Great video, loved it, this has been one of my biggest complaints about the industry. It seems like only the small guys are being honest with you and even then you never really know. Grim Rabbit Games just launched the new Gatefall expansion. It is basically done and ready to hit print. They plan on a July delivery which just sounds insane nowadays so see a crowdfunded game that far along in development at launch.
Real quick KOA, good video buddy…glad to see you kind of "Pop Off" there…cause that's what we are ALL thinking mostly. That.being said, I do believe that some of this falls.on KS as well, not holding theses companies accountable or helping us out when things take ridiculously long. But 2 companies that I like to pledge to because I always feel like I'm getting my stuff in a timely manner is Steamforged and Titanforge. The last couple projects from both those companies delivered really quick and within reason. What you think of them? Anyways, GREAT video KOA